It's the unexpected wins that make you smile

[dalecooper]

***** Hand History for Game 2042840594 *****
$25 NL Hold'em - Friday, May 13, 13:00:36 EDT 2005
Table Table 36919 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 1: Ylgas ( $33.4 )
Seat 3: davidcory ( $55.2 )
Seat 5: Judyddlee ( $66.39 )
Seat 6: stressball10 ( $21.45 )
Seat 4: Luucas ( $12.58 )
Ylgas posts small blind [$0.1].
davidcory posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to stressball10 [ Ad 5s ]
Luucas calls [$0.25].
davidcory: of course u have nothing
Judyddlee calls [$0.25].
stressball10 raises [$1].
Ylgas folds.
davidcory calls [$0.75].
Luucas calls [$0.75].
Judyddlee calls [$0.75].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4h, 3d, 6s ]
davidcory checks.
Judyddlee: I keep falling for that lol
Luucas checks.
Judyddlee checks.
stressball10 bets [$3].
davidcory: gas knows 1 speed has no brakes
roscoepico9 has joined the table.
davidcory folds.
Luucas is all-In [$11.58]
Judyddlee folds.
davidcory: cool
stressball10 calls [$8.58].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Td ]
** Dealing River ** [ 8s ]
stressball10 shows [ Ad, 5s ] high card ace.
Luucas doesn't show [ 5h, Jh ] high card jack.
stressball10 wins $25.91 from the main pot with high card ace.

[dalecooper]

***** Hand History for Game 2042858938 *****
$25 NL Hold'em - Friday, May 13, 13:07:01 EDT 2005
Table Table 36919 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 1: Ylgas ( $32.7 )
Seat 3: davidcory ( $49.45 )
Seat 5: Judyddlee ( $70.89 )
Seat 6: stressball10 ( $28.78 )
Seat 2: roscoepico9 ( $29.8 )
Judyddlee posts small blind [$0.1].
stressball10 posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to stressball10 [ 6c Qs ]
Ylgas folds.
roscoepico9 raises [$1].
davidcory folds.
bluffhunter has joined the table.
Judyddlee calls [$0.9].
stressball10 calls [$0.75].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 6d, 4h, Qc ]
Judyddlee bets [$0.25].
stressball10 raises [$2].
roscoepico9 calls [$2].
Judyddlee calls [$1.75].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Tc ]
Judyddlee checks.
stressball10 bets [$8].
roscoepico9 calls [$8].
Judyddlee folds.
** Dealing River ** [ Td ]
stressball10 checks.
roscoepico9 bets [$15].
stressball10: sigh
stressball10: if you had a queen you're probably ahead of me now
stressball10: what a bunch of crap
stressball10 calls [$15].
roscoepico9 shows [ As, Ks ] a pair of tens.
stressball10 shows [ 6c, Qs ] two pairs, queens and tens.
stressball10 wins $53 from the main pot with two pairs, queens and tens.

[ensign_lee]

With all due respect, these hands were HORRIBLY played.
Hand 1: even if the other guy has a pair of fours and nothing but that, he's still a favorite here. What are you doing calling someone's all in?

Hand 2: Despite the fact that you won, there is NO WAY you should have called that river bet. The only thing you beat here is a bluff, a pair of sixes, and a pair of fours. Any queen with a kicker better than a 6 (which is much more than likely) and any 10 beats you, much less an overpair bigger than queens.

Nice wins, but I've got to say, badly played.

[dalecooper]

With all due respect, these hands were HORRIBLY played.
Hand 1: even if the other guy has a pair of fours and nothing but that, he's still a favorite here. What are you doing calling someone's all in?

Take another look. The pot was $4 or so going to the flop. I bet $3, pot increases to $7 (which by the way I think is a reasonable bet - semi-bluffing on an OESD and as the original raiser, in last position). He goes all-in for another $8.50 plus calling my $3. My pot odds are 18.50:8:50 or better than 2:1, which is about what I need to call with an open-ended straight draw against a decent but not monster hand. I thought about that one for most of the clock - my first instinct was to fold but I figured on pot odds alone, I probably should call. Plus I had a decent read that the guy was full of crap. He was short-stacked because he'd been pulling that kind of nonsense before; raising huge with draws and check-raising with modest holdings at best. If I figured there was even a 10% chance I was ahead of him, that gives me +EV on the call.

I know it looks like a bad call, but when you go through the math as I did at the time, I think you almost HAVE to make that call after the way the rest of the hand went. If he'd had much more money in his stack I would have folded. Even a few more bucks to call would make my decision different.

Hand 2: Despite the fact that you won, there is NO WAY you should have called that river bet. The only thing you beat here is a bluff, a pair of sixes, and a pair of fours. Any queen with a kicker better than a 6 (which is much more than likely) and any 10 beats you, much less an overpair bigger than queens.

I had to trust a read here - nothing more I can say. I used the whole clock and thought over a number of hands I'd played with that guy, and I decided he was full of it. It's maybe not a mathematically sound call, but I think every once in a while you have to stand up to the type of player that will call you down and then dramatically overbet as soon as you show even a little weakness. My opinion is that people will run all over you in 6max if you come in checking a lot of hands, but if you show that you're willing to call some outrageous bets with decent cards, they'll back off and not attack you so much.

On this one I felt like he did not have an overpair (after his pre-flop raise he showed no signs of life, just calling down until the river when I finally checked to him) and he did not have AQ or even KQ (because he probably would have raised me on the flop when I bet out). The only thing I could think is that he would have been slowplaying queens or QT, but if that was the case, why bet so much on the river when I was obviously nervous about the second ten coming out? That bet is not exactly begging for a call, which is pretty much why I ended up calling it.

[dsaxton]

I had to trust a read here - nothing more I can say. I used the whole clock and thought over a number of hands I'd played with that guy, and I decided he was full of it.

This is kind of silly. In the transcript of the hand you say "what a bunch of crap" and then make a crying call, and now you're talking about "reads" and examining a "range of possible hands." It's pretty obvious this was just a stubborn call.

[dalecooper]

I had to trust a read here - nothing more I can say. I used the whole clock and thought over a number of hands I'd played with that guy, and I decided he was full of it.

This is kind of silly. In the transcript of the hand you say "what a bunch of crap" and then make a crying call, and now you're talking about "reads" and examining a "range of possible hands." It's pretty obvious this was just a stubborn call.

I was trying to get him to say something in response, and doing some thinking out loud. It helps me figure out what his bet means to talk about it. In a real poker game I'd do the exact same thing. You can think whatever you like, but I concluded that he hadn't played like he had a queen in his hand, and I was happy to be right. I figured him for a missed draw or a pair like pocket jacks; wasn't expecting to see AK but it made sense after the fact.

It's of course almost impossible to get online players to respond in the middle of a hand like that, but I like to try anyway. Hellmuth does it all the time, seemingly ranting about a hand while trying to get a reaction out of his opponent. Negreanu does it (in a nicer way) too. I'm not that good at it, but when you're sitting there fuming over your counterfeited two pair, it's better than nothing.

I'll also say this - if there's one thing I do VERY little of in poker, it's making stubborn calls. I don't like to pay people off when they get lucky against me. I try to always take the time to make the right read. The hand history doesn't show it here, but I made that call when the clock was at 1 second - and if I'd had five more minutes to think, I would have used it. The last time I can remember making a legitimate stubborn call was with pocket aces against a guy who had pocket kings, and he hit trips on the turn and raised me big. I *knew* he had the trips but I couldn't let it go, I was just so mad that he had sucked out on me. I made a spite call. This was not one of those... I like to think that I learned my lesson. I'll make bad calls if I misread the hand, but I won't call a guy that I really think is ahead of me just because I'm on tilt or something.

[dsaxton]

I had to trust a read here - nothing more I can say. I used the whole clock and thought over a number of hands I'd played with that guy, and I decided he was full of it.

This is kind of silly. In the transcript of the hand you say "what a bunch of crap" and then make a crying call, and now you're talking about "reads" and examining a "range of possible hands." It's pretty obvious this was just a stubborn call.

I was trying to get him to say something in response, and doing some thinking out loud. It helps me figure out what his bet means to talk about it. In a real poker game I'd do the exact same thing. You can think whatever you like, but I concluded that he hadn't played like he had a queen in his hand, and I was happy to be right. I figured him for a missed draw or a pair like pocket jacks; wasn't expecting to see AK but it made sense after the fact.

I'll also say this - if there's one thing I do VERY little of in poker, it's making stubborn calls. I don't like to pay people off when they get lucky against me. I try to always take the time to make the right read. The hand history doesn't show it here, but I made that call when the clock was at 1 second - and if I'd had five more minutes to think, I would have used it. The last time I can remember making a legitimate stubborn call was with pocket aces against a guy who had pocket kings, and he hit trips on the turn and raised me big. I *knew* he had the trips but I couldn't let it go, I was just so mad that he had sucked out on me. I made a spite call. This was not one of those... I like to think that I learned my lesson. I'll make bad calls if I misread the hand, but I won't call a guy that I really think is ahead of me just because I'm on tilt or something.

Oh.

[dalecooper]

Here, if you guys want to rip me for actual bad play, have at these ones:

***** Hand History for Game 2042719628 *****
$25 NL Hold'em - Friday, May 13, 12:17:13 EDT 2005
Table Table 36584 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 2: jahapp ( $34.3 )
Seat 3: wizkidbert ( $10.8 )
Seat 5: AcesDown1980 ( $34.35 )
Seat 6: Hakanini ( $33.66 )
Seat 1: stressball10 ( $30.2 )
jahapp posts small blind [$0.1].
wizkidbert posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to stressball10 [ 8h Td ]
AcesDown1980 calls [$0.25].
Hakanini calls [$0.25].
stressball10 calls [$0.25].
jahapp calls [$0.15].
wizkidbert checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2d, Tc, Th ]
jahapp checks.
wizkidbert checks.
AcesDown1980 checks.
Hakanini bets [$2].
stressball10 calls [$2].
jahapp folds.
wizkidbert folds.
AcesDown1980 folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 4d ]
Hakanini bets [$4].
stressball10 calls [$4].
** Dealing River ** [ Qd ]
Hakanini bets [$6].
stressball10 calls [$6].
Hakanini shows [ 6d, 7d ] a flush, queen high.
stressball10 shows [ 8h, Td ] three of a kind, tens.
Hakanini wins $24 from the main pot with a flush, queen high.

***** Hand History for Game 2042726923 *****
$25 NL Hold'em - Friday, May 13, 12:19:48 EDT 2005
Table Table 36584 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 2: jahapp ( $32.55 )
Seat 3: wizkidbert ( $13 )
Seat 5: AcesDown1980 ( $34.6 )
Seat 1: stressball10 ( $26.15 )
jahapp posts small blind [$0.1].
wizkidbert posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to stressball10 [ Qd Ac ]
AcesDown1980 folds.
stressball10 raises [$0.75].
jahapp calls [$0.65].
wizkidbert folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8h, 6h, Kc ]
jahapp checks.
stressball10 checks.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3s ]
jahapp checks.
stressball10 checks.
** Dealing River ** [ Jc ]
jahapp bets [$1].
stressball10 calls [$1].
jahapp shows [ Jd, 9d ] a pair of jacks.
stressball10 doesn't show [ Qd, Ac ] high card ace.
jahapp wins $3.6 from the main pot with a pair of jacks.

***** Hand History for Game 2042738237 *****
$25 NL Hold'em - Friday, May 13, 12:23:48 EDT 2005
Table Table 36584 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 2: jahapp ( $33.4 )
Seat 3: wizkidbert ( $13.35 )
Seat 5: AcesDown1980 ( $31.1 )
Seat 1: stressball10 ( $27.8 )
Seat 4: byrner ( $26.25 )
Seat 6: rivermiss1 ( $23.75 )
byrner posts small blind [$0.1].
AcesDown1980 posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to stressball10 [ Kc Ac ]
rivermiss1 folds.
stressball10 raises [$1].
jahapp calls [$1].
wizkidbert calls [$1].
byrner folds.
AcesDown1980 calls [$0.75].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Jc, Qh, 6s ]
AcesDown1980 checks.
stressball10 bets [$3].
jahapp folds.
wizkidbert calls [$3].
AcesDown1980 folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 4s ]
stressball10 bets [$6].
wizkidbert is all-In [$9.35]
stressball10: uh oh
stressball10 calls [$3.35].
** Dealing River ** [ 3s ]
stressball10 shows [ Kc, Ac ] high card ace.
wizkidbert shows [ Js, As ] a flush, ace high.
wizkidbert wins $27.4 from the main pot with a flush, ace high.


Hand 1 - should have raised the flop but I got cute, then should have raised the turn but at that point I was convinced he had a 10 also and I just wanted to call down.

Hand 2 - should hav bet the flop but I was mutli-tabling and neglected to do it. Then a bad call on the river, I didn't have the hand or the pot odds to make the call, even though it was a small amount. Just had my brain turned off on that one.

Hand 3 - I thought I was past keeping up bluffs on the turn when they failed on the flop, but for some reason I thought I could get this guy to lay down. He picked up the flush draw and obviously wasn't going anywhere, and then I had to make a crying call on his raise (because it was so small) even though I knew by that point he was ahead of me. Misplayed the turn completely and it cost me too much money, and I knew it even before I saw his cards.

[dalecooper]

Here's a good one - best read I've made all day. Unlike the first two hands in this thread, I made this call in about a quarter of a second. The way he bet (and the amount of time it took him to raise me on the turn) screamed that he had AJ or KJ, and I wasn't going to lay down even if it had cost me another $100 to call. He made a good aggressive play - I think most people would put him on the flush on the turn, or possibly a set, but his quick-as-possible pot bet on the flop smelled strongly of top pair good kicker.

***** Hand History for Game 2043696073 *****
$25 NL Hold'em - Friday, May 13, 17:08:47 EDT 2005
Table Table 36582 (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: WolfGang67 ( $21.32 )
Seat 2: jjf_9 ( $21.6 )
Seat 4: rcmkd ( $23.7 )
Seat 5: blevy01 ( $28.3 )
Seat 6: cbdcbd5861 ( $16.7 )
Seat 7: thadecline19 ( $25.45 )
Seat 8: Ramak14 ( $27.5 )
Seat 10: phrostbit ( $27.05 )
Seat 9: stressball10 ( $20.4 )
jjf_9 posts small blind [$0.1].
rcmkd posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to stressball10 [ Qs Qd ]
blevy01 calls [$0.25].
thadecline19 folds.
Ramak14 folds.
stressball10 raises [$0.75].
phrostbit folds.
WolfGang67 folds.
jjf_9 calls [$0.65].
rcmkd folds.
blevy01 calls [$0.5].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Jh, 5c, 6h ]
jjf_9 checks.
blevy01 bets [$2.4].
stressball10 raises [$4.8].
jjf_9 folds.
blevy01 calls [$2.4].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 4h ]
blevy01 checks.
stressball10 bets [$6].
RiGeDaSSsItE has joined the table.
blevy01 is all-In [$22.75]
stressball10 is all-In [$8.85]
** Dealing River ** [ 4s ]
stressball10 shows [ Qs, Qd ] two pairs, queens and fours.
blevy01 shows [ Js, Ad ] two pairs, jacks and fours.
blevy01 wins $7.9 from side pot #1 with two pairs, jacks and fours.
stressball10 wins $39.75 from the main pot with two pairs, queens and fours.
RiGeDaSSsItE has left the table.

[dalecooper]

Oh.

I'm curious, saxton, how many of your opponents type in comments like that after you raise big, and then call you. I think when most people start firing out expressions of disgust and dismay in the chat, they're just wasting time before the eventual fold. I'm not wasting time - I'm buying it. My first impulse here was to fold; it was my second impulse (otherwise known as "thinking it over") that made me call.

If you don't make at least an occasional thin call like that against a known aggressive player, you're going to let them run all over you... that's the bottom line as far as I'm concerned. If I sat at a table with someone like Ripptyde I'd have to make a call like this every hour (at least) just to keep all my chips out of his stack.

[sejje]

Every time I go with my second impulse (see the "board paired" hand I just posted), I pay off some kind of hand.

I'm just a big freakin' payoff lately.

[dalecooper]

Every time I go with my second impulse (see the "board paired" hand I just posted), I pay off some kind of hand.

I'm just a big freakin' payoff lately.

Two quick pieces of advice on this...

1. Don't pay off a guy on a big river bet unless you've seen him bluff before in a similar situation. Without a read, you have no reason to call a bet like that with a mediocre hand. The typical so-so internet player overbets good hands and doesn't bluff as much as you think he does.

2. Pay off less (or not at all) in full rings. 6 max games are loaded with players who bluff more often, maybe three or four times as much as the average full ring player. Any player worth a crap knows that short-handed games are easiest to bully, so sometimes you've got to stand up to the bully. But even in 6 max, don't assume (see #1). In full rings, most of the time it's not a bluff. I usually wait to see a specific player pull off multiple bluffs before I go after him in a full ring.