did i bet the turn too hard?

[Staresy]

quite early in a $5 MTT. I have just won two large pots with solid bets (although I did have the cards to bet with). I then get dealt this. had a cheap call to see if I can catch a rush of cards. what's your move on the turn and why?

Seat 1: p cash ($1,725 in chips)
Seat 2: dannov5_74 ($1,505 in chips)
Seat 3: Slo-Mo1 ($1,135 in chips)
Seat 4: A-09- ($1,105 in chips)
Seat 5: staresy [3H,5H] ($2,085 in chips)
Seat 6: buzz cut ($890 in chips)
Seat 7: kenny5aces ($1,805 in chips)
Seat 8: No Limit 22 ($1,425 in chips)
Seat 9: Martster ($3,395 in chips)
Seat 10: sandishores ($1,400 in chips)



ANTES/BLINDS
staresy posts blind ($15), buzz cut posts blind ($30).

PRE-FLOP
kenny5aces folds, No Limit 22 calls $30, Martster calls $30, sandishores calls $30, p cash calls $30, dannov5_74 folds, Slo-Mo1 folds, A-09- folds, staresy calls $15, buzz cut checks.

FLOP [board cards 4H,JH,2S ]
staresy bets $90, buzz cut folds, No Limit 22 folds, Martster calls $90, sandishores folds, p cash calls $90.

TURN [board cards 4H,JH,2S,AS ]
staresy bets $400, Martster folds, p cash folds.

SHOWDOWN
staresy wins $850.



SUMMARY
Dealer: A-09-
Pot: $850
p cash, loses $120
dannov5_74, loses $0
Slo-Mo1, loses $0
A-09-, loses $0
staresy, bets $520, collects $850, net $330
buzz cut, loses $30
kenny5aces, loses $0
No Limit 22, loses $30
Martster, loses $120
sandishores, loses $30

[drmcboy]

I had two situations come up like this in an SNG the other day, made the nut str8 but 1 or two flush draws out and more than one opp in pot. I had been playing aggresive so I bet out (1/2-3/4 PS) with both hands hoping to get some action, but was folded to me both times. I think it's the right play, espeically with two draws out. Unlikely that someone has the spades but you don't want to make a tough choice on the end. Also you didn't have to risk much to make this hand, so I think you can be happy with this pay off.

[BreakfastMan]

I think it is the proper size for the bet. With two callers in a $5 SnG, I would think it is quite likely one of them is looking for the heart flush. The spade flush is also a long shot. You need to bet strong here. If you don't get called then you win a nice pot, if you do get called and a heart doesn't come, you win a great pot.

[homerdash]

Let's talk about the flop first. Why did you lead out? If you thought making a bet yourself would let you see the turn for cheaper than if you checked, that's a good idea. But you can't assume the 6 and ace of hearts are clean outs, so this is more of a bluff than a bet.

Your large bet on the turn makes the flush draw and possibly the pair of jacks fold. Nothing wrong with taking the pot right there, but if you were pretty sure the only thing beating you was a flush, I'd bet less there (around 200) to see if I could get someone to chase. Keep in mind that you have 2 hearts in your hand so you can bet less and their pot odds will be wrong (although they won't know that ).

[TLR]

I am trying to figure out why did they both called your bet on the flop.

Your bet pretty much represented a J. If any one of them had a J he should either raise or fold, but calling does not make much sense.

If this is the case your chance of winning much more then is already in the pot are pretty small, I would try to take the pot on the turn as you did

[Fortune 500]

On the flop, it's a decent call but out of position. It's 15 to win 185, so you definitely got the right price to play your rush.

Leading that flop? I don't know. you're UTG, so there's a lot to happen. In late position I might lead the flop for the old "Fold them and get a free card" play, but leading a Draw? Risky. It has it's benefits if you hit, but it's too early in the tourney to be making a play like this, I think.

THere's 450 in the pot on the turn, and your dending off one flush draw. That makes basically 22 cards you don't want to see, and 46 remaining. Let's just call it a 50/50 shot.

If you bet pot sized, you're offering your opponent 3-1 on his money, and an even better deal to the last position, at 4-1. At best though, your opponent has 11 outs, we assume (The can't have both flush draws), so they need 4-1 more or less to make this call. By overbetting the pot like you did, you're getting the best of all worlds. There's no way the first guy can call and be correct. And if he does, he's not giving the last one the right odds. If the first guy calls, there's 1470 in the pot and it's 520 to call, so he's getting less than 3-1. I'd say it's just about a perfect bet.

[chardrian]

180 chips in pot after flop. You bet 90/half the pot with both a str8 and flush (although a very weak flush) draw. I don't mind that bet. You are being the aggressor and it worked - you got two callers. The calls should be sending sirens off in your head that your flush draw might not be good anymore tho.

450 chips in pot after turn. You bet just under the pot/400 after making your hand. I don't mind that bet either - in fact I don't think either had a flush draw. From what I've seen at a $5 tourney most players would call there and chase their flush. I think an all-in probably woulda been even better. The two guys who called were playing like foolios if they had a hand. If one was chasing then the A very well might have hit for him as well and he just might call. If one actually IS chasing the flush then he might just keep chasing in a $5 tourney and you are skunking him if the flush doesn't hit.

[Rondavu]

Your turn bet was a chicken overbet with no good purpose. Your sitting there with a made straight and the only flush draw before the turn hit after two people called good bets. There is very little chance someone will improve to a better hand than you. This is a great opportunity to extract a little more money and feel confident your hand will remain boss through showdown. There is no reason to scare anyone in this situation. You scared away extra money is all you did.

I don't often advocate allowing people to hang around, but this is arguably one of those times. It's better to be safe than sorry I agree, but seriously, were you so afraid of a spade flush? Get out of town and learn when it's right to milk the cow.

[drmcboy]

why are you only talking about the spade flush? 90 isn't enough chips to fold people off a draw on the flop.

very little chance?? 20% on the heart, and you have a tough decision if the spade gets there.

[Rondavu]

why are you only talking about the spade flush? 90 isn't enough chips to fold people off a draw on the flop.

very little chance?? 20% on the heart, and you have a tough decision if the spade gets there.

Your right, but more often than not you have the best hand here and it will hold up. When the odds are this far in your favor it's correct to extract. Playing this situation passively is the best play in my humble opinion. It's win win. If you have the best hand through showdown (most likely), you extracted more chips. If you lose, you didn't get raped. It was stated earlier that one of these guys are loose. What if he has the high heart flush or spade flush draw, calls 400 and hits?

You should understand that I am a huge advocate of hammering the pot when your ahead to take it down, but the odds are so far in his favor.

If you play this exact hand 10 times, your going to make more money being passive.

[drmcboy]

What if he has the high heart flush or spade flush draw, calls 400 and hits?

You have forced him to make an incorrect call, which is the goal here. Giving odds to draw means you are making the mistake. Are you saying you are folding if the heart/spade comes or calling?

Also you're ignoring the fact that two opps are in the hand, there was a good chance one had an A and would call the 400... if that happens even the 400 may not be enough to fold out the draw.

[chardrian]

I'm in total agreement with drmcboy here.

Gotta look at the tourney - only $5 (people will CHASE Ray people will CHASE - they will come not knowing what has drawn them to this small tourney and they will give their $5 away and be happy to do so - they should make a Field of Poker movie don't you think?).

There are also two flush draws out there now as well as the A that mighta been chased (and/or 2 pair that just caught). Are you recommending he check that turn and possibly lose his made hand?

[Rondavu]

All I'm suggesting is that he bet 200 and forget about the fears. Here are my reasons...

-A guy with ace rag is usually not going to call 400 on a turn bet when 3 to the wheel comes out. I'm not saying fish won't do so. They do it sometimes. No preflop raise means no AJ AK AQ or AT exist here. A 400 bet into this pot represents good strength and makes you go hmmm fold with Ace rag. If you bet 200 and they feel their ace is good, then they raise and you just put them on an ace. Now you will take their stack. Don't bet 400 hoping for an ace to call. bet 200 hoping for an ace to come over the top of you, and simultaneoulsy give you a read.

-He has two hearts. Flush over flush is rare on a 3 suited board. You simply do not even consider someone else with hearts here. Sorry, but you don't.

-The spade draw is the only logical thing to worry about. It would depend on your read, but only a real donk will chase a strong flop bet runner runner. Often I'll chase it if I also caught a good pair if the bet is reasonable. In this case neither of them have the Jack since they didn't raise it with a flush developing, and you probably won't stick around with a pair of 4's for runner runner.

This board talks to you. It says that no one has anything you should be worrying about, and commence the milking.

[chardrian]

All I'm suggesting is that he bet 200 and forget about the fears. Here are my reasons...

-A guy with ace rag is usually not going to call 400 on a turn bet when 3 to the wheel comes out. I'm not saying fish won't do so. They do it sometimes. No preflop raise means no AJ AK AQ or AT exist here. A 400 bet into this pot represents good strength and makes you go hmmm fold with Ace rag. If you bet 200 and they feel their ace is good, then they raise and you just put them on an ace. Now you will take their stack. Don't bet 400 hoping for an ace to call. bet 200 hoping for an ace to come over the top of you, and simultaneoulsy give you a read.

-He has two hearts. Flush over flush is rare on a 3 suited board. You simply do not even consider someone else with hearts here. Sorry, but you don't.

-The spade draw is the only logical thing to worry about. It would depend on your read, but only a real donk will chase a strong flop bet runner runner. Often I'll chase it if I also caught a good pair if the bet is reasonable. In this case neither of them have the Jack since they didn't raise it with a flush developing, and you probably won't stick around with a pair of 4's for runner runner.

This board talks to you. It says that no one has anything you should be worrying about, and commence the milking.

I think you haven't played enough if you really think the spade draw is the only thing to worry about. Granted the heart draw now has two less outs since you hold it as well, but really really silly to NOT even CONSIDER it especially at a $5 tourney where practically everyone is playing any two suited cards. Under your rationale, if the heart comes on the river you are calling or betting all-in with no worries - I have lost enough of these that depending on my read I could actually lay this hand down on the river... especially if I let someone catch by only betting 200 on the turn. Lastly, I think you are assuming that everyone playing this table is good - they aren't. It's a $5 tourney. Amateur mistake that you see ALL the time is slowplaying AK and AQ, and slowplaying the AJ... come on - we KNOW that's what a rookie would be doing here on both the flop and turn.

I don't totally hate your 200 bet idea... but you got to be willing to chuck your hand if something does hit when you do that and blame no one but yourself for letting it happen.

[Staresy]

Your turn bet was a chicken overbet with no good purpose.

Harsh, but fair!!!

I figured I bet the turn too hard (hence the title of the post!!). I think the $5 mentality did come into my decision making process a little bit. I was sure there was enough to encourage people to stay involved (the Ace and 2 flush draws on the board) as well as 2 players staying in having called from early and mid position, whereas I had completed from the SB.

I figured I had the nuts at this stage and, whilst I wanted to get paid off, I was a little concerned that my hand was a little vulnerable with one card to come and wanted to make sure anyone chasing did so foolishly. In retrospect, I think a 200-250 bet would have sufficed and rather than bet 400, I might as well have flipped my cards over!

All part of the learning curve I guess. It is a fine line at $5 level between getting paid off, making the chasers make incorrect decisions and protecting yourself from a trip to suck-out city.

cheers to all for their input!

[Rondavu]

Buying the pot was correct in it's own way. I recommend it if you don't have a good read on the situation.

Just remember you're trained not to slow play yourself to death. That doesn't mean you should close your eyes to a high percentage opportunity to slow play successfully, when it presents itself.

I could go on and on, but I will conclude because I'm tired. I suppose it's all a matter of style, and I respect other styles. Personally, I would have extracted instead of bought after the turn.

[Staresy]

No worries Rondavu. I've read other posts you've made and I respect your play and comments a lot.

I am still learning that fine line between when to slow play, milk and buy pots. On a slight off-topic, I am having a little trouble with this when I hit sets at the moment as well.