MTTs - Mid Torny

[ADWCTA]

I've been having trouble with MTTs 15+1 buy in Party Poker (I started playing because the rake was so low) usually 1500-2000 players, top 220 ITM

I'm usually fine for the first hour and a half (find a spot to double up, semi-bluff out a few pots) with 1200 players left and I'm usually above average chip count...

However, by the time the field narrows down to 800, I'm shortstacked, and I'm usually out by the time the 200s roll around (forced to make a play at the pot or the blinds with a sub par hand due to rising blinds and low chip stack).

Should there be any significant alterations in stratagy between early play and this mid section? (I've been playing both the same way). It seems too early to turn on the aggression (I would think that 300 players left would be a good time to do it, but not as early as 1200)...

any suggestions for the 1200 player mark when I'm usually second or third to chip lead for the table?

[DBL0SVN]

Good question. Not sure I can be of help since I have the same problem but am interested in other people's replies. Early on, the blinds are so low, I do OK just playing tight and maybe doubling up off a premium hand. On the bubble and ITM I'm fine too since I rachet up the aggression factor at that stage. But like you, hour 2 or even hour 3 seems too early to turn up the aggression - and that's when my stack starts to dwindle relative to the blinds.
Any answers from the experts here?

[chardrian]

I don't consider myself an expert but...

it sounds to me like you are at the part of the tourney where you have lost a majority of the retards who call the all-in with TPTK every time, and while you are not shortstacked you are not really making a move either.

This is the time of the tourney where you really got to pay attention to who is at your table and what they are doing. Don't turn into a total tightwad and wait for that magical hand to double up - against good players, when you catch that hand, they'll fold. Use your position, steal blinds, stop just calling people and hoping to catch, make reads and go with them (if you have a hand bet but there are draws figure out the other player's pot odds and bet over that - if they chase make em gamble). With blinds ever increasing at a rate that becomes a bigger and bigger percentage of your chip stack, you gotta be making those blinds so that if you are raised on your blind you can fold-em and still be ok.

For me, the key has been to become aggressive but not stupid. When I was starting out. I would often pick a hand (like AT suited) and say ok this will be my make it or break it hand without thinking about my position, my chip stack relative to the caller(s), my reads, etc. I would raise 3-4x BB and then push all-in no matter what my following bet. The tourneys I have done well in, luck was much less of a factor then you would think - I was still willing to raise 3-4xBB with my AT suited but I was also willing to fold it depending on my read/position. At this time in a tourney you have to be winning a hand/stealing blinds every orbit or you just start putting yourself in a position where your only choice is to push pre-flop and hope for the best. The only way to do that is to increase the aggression factor.

[DWDuck]

Personally I like to look more at how big the blinds are relative to my stack, and relative to the stacks of other people at the table. Like an SNG, once the blinds get up to 50/100 you're going to start wanting to pick some spots and steal. If you've played breakeven up to this point the blinds are probably about 10% of your stack, so you'll need to start stealing to maintain this level (at the least!). It sounds like you're likely doing this, because you're one of the higher stacks at the table. At this point most of the crazies are gone. At this point most of my money (for me at least) is made through aggression. Continue to steal blinds. Don't just wait for opportunities from the button or CO. Try a few MP raises as well, stealing out of position. Occasionally you'll get called on these. If the flop is rags, fire out another decent bet. I usually try to target the lower stacks, but not the people who are desperate yet. If a flop misses them and you fire out a decent sized bet, they almost always fold. Force them to make decisions for a large part of their stack. If they don't have anything, do you really think they'll call? I find at this stage of the tournament you have to start playing aggressive. The table tends to tighten up at this point, so you want to do the opposite.

A lot of this has to do with the reads you have on other people at the table. Many will do absolutely nothing to steal their blinds. Target these people. Some players will play hard back at you. Don't avoid these players altogether, but don't focus too much aggression at these players. You don't care who you're taking money from at this point. What is important is keeping a steady increase in your stack.

Ok... I'm starting to ramble. All I'm trying to say is, start getting more aggressive when the table starts tightening up. Eventually people stop limping in when the blinds get too big for their stacks. This is the time when you should start getting into MORE hands, and more aggressively. Sure, you'll take some hits on the way. If you make enough while you're doing it though you'll be able to absorb these hits and keep chugging.

If you're doing this all well, you should be in very few showdowns on the way. Back of when people show strength (unless you have something). Pounce on people when they show weakness (min bets hoping that everybody folds, that kind of thing). When you bet to try to take a pot, don't throw out the minimum bet. Throw out a half pot bet that would take a big chunk out of their stack. If the flop hit them hard you'll lose that money, so you simply have to try to time it well.

That's all I got right now.

Darkwing

[drmcboy]

I like what DW said.

Not sure why # of people in the tourney is dictating your play. Just play with the 9 or 10 at your table. Basically your choices are:

aggresive - more risk, better chance to build a nice stack, which means better chance to steal as the blinds go up.

passive - requires actual cards, which may or may not arrive.

I like choice 1, because I have a chance to win without cards, and if the cards come I have a much better chance of getting paid. This would be true whether I was average or above average stack, but especially the case with an above average stack. Above average chips = gambling chips to me. As you've seen, the stack you build in the first hour or two isn't going to win you anything, may as well get in and mix it up. Certainly some here will tell you just the opposite, though. Old tight me got sick of blinding out just like you are and decided I was either going to get me a big stack... or find a new tourney!

[ADWCTA]

thx for the replies.

by the time the blinds are 100/200 is when i start my downfall. I usually have 2k-3k chips. and yes, I'm still playing agressive postflop by semi-bluffing/betting into rags (about 75% I do this, 25% I just check/fold).

the problem is, by this point, the table is not getting tighter... it's instead getting looser, more agressive. As the chip stacks are now very uneven, a lot of low-stacked are just waiting for a chance to double up... and big stacks are 50% camping th eother 50% of them are being aggressive. I know how to play an agressive table and how to play a tight table... but this even spread really bothers me because unless I'm in good position, most of my steals have to go through players of different chip stack size/playing styles before it can succeed.

If I turn my agrro on now, I can bubble out easily if I hit up against a big hand. If I play as I did before this stage, the more aggresive players seem to have a vital edge over me.

At this stage, do you start taking risks with your stack that would heavily cripple you if they don't pay off? (say, 1k pot... you're still holding 1k in chips... three players in hand, you made the 3x BB preflop raise with Q8 spades and were called by dealer [large stack size] and big blind [same stack size]... flop comes out, 569 two cards are diamonds, big blind checks to you. Do you come out firing?)

[DWDuck]

Tough for me to comment directly, since I rarely find the tables that aggressive. It does happen occasionally, so obviously you have to have a plan to combat it. Again, you have to pick some spots to pick up some chips. If you don't keep the chips coming in, you'll get blinded out. This involves getting reads on other players. Are there a couple who have been stealing your blinds regularly? Push back! If the button does a 3xBB raise on your blind, and his stack isn't too large (bigger stacks are more likely to call this move), push your stack in regardless of your cards. Could this backfire? Sure! More often than not though (on my experience) the stealer will fold. This does a couple things for you. First, it pays for a couple orbits. You just won three big blinds from this guy, as well as the small blind. Secondly, he might not be so anxious to steal your blinds the next time.

The same kind of move can work from the button. Suppose you have a read that the guy before you likes stealing. If he fires out his usual raise, and again if his stack isn't TOO big, reraise or push your stack in to resteal here. The blinds will likely fold (facing a raise and a reraise), and quite often the raiser will fold as well. Don't worry so much about your cards here. Sure, a high card is nice.... but you're hoping to avoid a showdown. You want the guy to fold his steal, and in the process you buy yourself a few orbits. It also makes people wary about you. You want the table to always be wondering what you're going to do.

Again, these moves can and will (sometimes) backfire. In my experience though, with good reads you can get them to succeed far more often than you'd expect. In the event that you get called, quite often it will be a coinflip to double up. Do the calculations... if for either of these moves they have a 70% chance of folding (I'd suspect higher than that) and you have a 40% chance of winning if they call... then you're winning greater than 80% of the time. You don't need many of these to gain some respect at the table and have the play revolve around you.

In the particular example you gave I'd need to know a lot more information.... It depends largly on my reads, my stack size, and my opponents stack size. I'd be nervous about the button, since he has the biggest stack. Chances are I'd be willing to fire a bet on this pot however, and possibly push my stack in. Usually I'd rather only do this against one opponent that I have position on, which is why I'll use the "it depends" answer for your particular scenario.

Darkwing

[chardrian]

To me, this is sorta a different scenario.

You have 1k left and pot is 1k. Position (dealer) has you more than covered. This hand = go with your read. You didn't steal the blind like you had hoped, and your hand is very very vulnerable - your gutshot is maybe only 3 outs rather than 4 due to the flush draw, your Q, even if it were to hit could be beat by higher kicker or two pair. Will dealer give you a free card? Will he automatically make a bet in position? Can you reraise all-in and get him to fold if he does? How much do you need to bet to get him to fold (i.e. will he call you even if he only has a K or A hi)?

If you have no read and are unsure of the answer to any of these questions, then best play is to let this hand go I think.

[ADWCTA]

Well, after two MTTs where I got out at aproxx the same spot for aproxx the same reason, I was going to try something new and turn on the agression as soon as the table became agressive (go with the flow instead of keeping the semi-agressive play).

That situation came up, and my read on player A was that he never defends his blinds (thus, I tried to steal it), and my read on large stack was that he pushes people around, but will fold to aggression. The fact that both of them called me should have sent alarms through my head... but it didn't. I was just looking at the pot and my chip stack and the blinds and thinking damnit, this is probobly going to be my best shot at it. I raise 750, completely pot commiting myself (this move i've found works better to scare people away than an all in, and occasionally an idiot will call and when you go all in the next turn he'll fold). Sure enough, big stack re-raised me all in and Player A folded, I call, he had mid pockets (which I should have read correctly, with the information I had it was so obvious) and nothing hits. Blah, sry I'm ranting... just a bad play on my part... I knew I could bluff out big blind and dealer if niether hit anything... but I really should have seen the PP coming (from at least one of them... BB prolly wouldn't have called me with PP, but still... risk i shouldn't have taken).

[chardrian]

Rants are fine as long as you learn from them. Looks to me like your read was good, you just chose an inopportune spot and couldn't back away. That's a huge part of my game that I'm trying to improve as well. It is so hard for me to back off my aggressive play when I fire at a pot, but sometimes you gotta.

[michael1123]

AGGRESSION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Its absolutely essential to consistent success in MTTs, and this early / middle mark is where it starts to kick in (and personally, I'm never really comfortable UNTIL it gets here).

Once the BB is in the 100-200 range, you need to start stealing blinds whenever you can (minimum average of once per orbit really). If you can steal blinds / pots at the flop occasionally, along with the times you have real hands, you'll be building your stack. Staying around the same amount of chips for a long period of time in MTTs isn't good. Late in MTT type aggression (often just all in or fold unless you have a big stack) is much different from this middle stage aggression. You don't commit yourself with hands unless you're short stacked, you just get what you can when you can get it, and only really look to play monster pots if you have a monster or have a really good read.