Select Page
Poker Forum
Over 1,292,000 Posts!
Poker ForumTournament Poker

Single table SnG's. (Help)

Results 1 to 14 of 14
  1. #1

    Default Single table SnG's. (Help)

    I read the long write up about SnG's and it was a very good read.

    I've been having a lot of trouble lately with the $5-1 on PartyPoker.

    I was doing so good for about a week coming in either 1st or second. I've only been playing NL Hold Em for about 5 months now and I have came along way but I know I still have A LOT to learn.

    Lately when I have been playing the SnG's I lose the first one and place 3rd in the next then I stop for awhile and it's the same routin. I'm play smart but not good enough I guess.

    Any advice? Thanks in advance.
  2. #2
    my first thought is..


    more info please!

    might want to post some hand histories =)

    Q. Is poker Gambling?
    A. Do you use correct bankroll management?
  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Laeelin
    my first thought is..


    more info please!

    might want to post some hand histories =)
    I can't, I am at work.

    Just having trouble getting to the end in first. I'm playing smart, tight and agressive in the beginning, raising 3-4xbb when I get a good hand, nothing on the flops it seems like.

    I dunno just down on myelf right now and I know thats my first mistake.
  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by CoxhEd
    when I get a good hand, nothing on the flops it seems like.
    from the way you described it, it seems as if you are playing the cards and not the player?

    i pretty much multi and grind 1 tables all the time. below are my tatics and findings....maybe it'll help you find a leak in your game.

    1. i only play on stars....so i wouldn't know about party. but i heard party has crapshoot SnG structure...and with all the fish there, it'll probably turn out to be a sushi fest more than a poker game. maybe try out stars or UB for a bit?

    2. generally, i sit tight for the first few hands unless i'm dealt an absolute monster. on these 1 tables, it is extremely important to know your players like the back of your hand. all this information will be used later to your advantage. i watch how they bet, what they do when they're drawing, who's too loose, who's too tight, who's weak, who's strong, who's an ace whore, who's a straight whore, who's a calling station, etc etc. the point here is to isolate the bad players and punish them for their mistakes.

    3. mid tourney i'll begin to losen up and play according to my stack and the players around me. i use all the information above to exploit weak players. the absolute key here is no fear. if you sense weakness, bet like you have the flop and expolit that weakness. if you sense somebody trying to "exploit" you, trap them real good and scare the crap out of them. i have found that developing a certain table image helps tremendously.

    4. depending on how i feel, i sometimes protray a weak/tight image in the beginning, then change gears to tight/aggressive. this tends to work well because you scare the players quite nicely. (they were so sure of themselves of your betting tendencies.....and then all of a sudden, you stole 5 of their blinds in a row) other times, i like the image of a maniac/tilt machine. basically, raise with "crap" (but it should have some potential....don't raise w/ 2 cards that can't even make a straight i.e. Q2...put at least some effort ) and show them that you just stole with crap. this will usually tilt them into calling any bets you make. it also shows that you will raise with any two cards (of course this is not true....its just misdirection) and "could" potentially hit any flop thus giving you lots of room for exploiting people. also, i've found that when you DON'T showdown the cards that you WOULD HAVE won (lets say you had ace high flush on the river, you bet, he thinks for a long time, and folds), and then say something like "thank god you folded...lol", you will tilt them REALLY bad and they will most definately call any bets you make next time.

    5. to be perfectly honest, i build 40-60% of my stack during this time by exploitation. by the time you get to the bubble, you should be sitting at around 4k (on stars) and roughly 1st or 2nd in chips. i generally try not to just double up once or twice to get my stack. a general saying that i go by is, "earn easy money fast, lose easy money fast." now this is not true for everybody, but i've found that i do much better accumulating rather than getting the chips in chunks. all i'm trying to say, is i'm rarely trigger happy near the beginning of the tournament. i find that when i'm pulling the trigger alot, i get sucked out and kicked out sooner or later (hence the saying "lose easy money fast"). this doesn't mean to never pull the trigger.....it just means to wait until you have good reads on your players before you begin. don't just pull the trigger based on cards alone. pull it based on cards AND players.

    6. late tourney is another ball game. i guess i'll start with the bubble. when it gets down to the bubble, if i'm short stacking - i play with no fear. the only raise that big stacks will respect is AI. find your spot, pull the trigger, and pray. i don't really have any good tatics for short stacks on the bubble, maybe somebody else can elaborate on this one. big stack play is pretty simple. the key here is find the players who are weak, and exploit them. this is not always the extremely short stacked players. actually, i tend to stay away from short stack players who want to play russian roulette. find those mid stacks or even big stacks sometimes who are waiting for the $700 chips guy to go out and lean on them. never tone down your aggression. keep leaning on the weak until they crumble.

    7. itm. yay! but don't celebrate too soon. 3rd sucks, your goal is 1st. there are lots of different senarios for this point of the tourney, but i'll go over some common ones. big stack, big stack, short stack - hopefully you are a big stack here.......be very careful trying to steal from the short stack. usually, they are so happy that they didn't bubble out that they will pretty much be like a 3yr old on crack. monster stack, short stack, short stack - if your monster stack, do same as above (be careful on your steals...). if you're a short stack, try to avoid stealing from the monster stack. push on the other short stack and induce bluffs out of the monster stack (by playing weak when you're in a pot w/ him).

    8. the key is always know your players. go with your reads. find weak players and punish them. keep the aggression up and it will pay off in the long run.
  5. #5
    Thanks man, hopefully this helps me out in the long run. I appreciate it!
  6. #6
    UncleBuddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    180
    Location
    Somewhere chasing an open ended straight despite several large raises
    I think a few other guys have pointed it out well...but I'll say it again. You have to play the player. The worst part of it, is you have to be on top of this idea every hand you play. Never, ever fall in love with the cards in your hand. You have to fold some great hands on occasion. Let me give you an example of a bone headed play I made by falling in love with my hand:

    UB: QQ (big blind)

    preflop action: fold, call for 30, call for 30, raise to 90, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold. Uncle buddy reraises to 200. Fold, fold, raiser reraises me to 500.

    (unclebuddy did not think here and calls)

    Early in a tourney and the raiser had not played a hand yet.

    Flop 942 rainbow. Uncle buddy goes all in and gets busted by AA.

    perfect example of me playing my hand and not the player. He obviously was showing strength. AA or KK are the only hands I should have put him on, but I played my hand and busted out of the tourney in 10th position.

    In reality, I probably should have called preflop and made a 3/4 pot bet on the flop. A raise there tells me everything I need and I could have gotten out with some stack left. Bad move and 5.50 wasted. At least I learned from it.
  7. #7
    chardrian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    5,435
    Quote Originally Posted by UncleBuddy
    I think a few other guys have pointed it out well...but I'll say it again. You have to play the player. The worst part of it, is you have to be on top of this idea every hand you play. Never, ever fall in love with the cards in your hand. You have to fold some great hands on occasion. Let me give you an example of a bone headed play I made by falling in love with my hand:

    UB: QQ (big blind)

    preflop action: fold, call for 30, call for 30, raise to 90, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold. Uncle buddy reraises to 200. Fold, fold, raiser reraises me to 500.

    (unclebuddy did not think here and calls)

    Early in a tourney and the raiser had not played a hand yet.

    Flop 942 rainbow. Uncle buddy goes all in and gets busted by AA.

    perfect example of me playing my hand and not the player. He obviously was showing strength. AA or KK are the only hands I should have put him on, but I played my hand and busted out of the tourney in 10th position.

    In reality, I probably should have called preflop and made a 3/4 pot bet on the flop. A raise there tells me everything I need and I could have gotten out with some stack left. Bad move and 5.50 wasted. At least I learned from it.
    You should have called and bet the flop? If you had just called, then the two callers are going to call as well and now you just put your QQ in about the worst position as you could have hoped for pre-flop.

    Your raise pre-flop was the right play. His re-raise makes you stop and think. At this point, I agree your call was the wrong move - either move all-in or fold (either play ok in my book - sometimes QQ is just gonna lose to KK, AA, or AK). IMO by calling you are sorta screwing yourself as the only hands you are beating at this point are probably AK or maybe TT or JJ - but because he might have those hands and you called so much of your stack pre-flop you are sorta committed to going all-in.
  8. #8
    UncleBuddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    180
    Location
    Somewhere chasing an open ended straight despite several large raises
    You should have called and bet the flop? If you had just called, then the two callers are going to call as well and now you just put your QQ in about the worst position as you could have hoped for pre-flop.
    The table was very tight. Small raises were getting limpers out. Even if one hung on, I knew that I was facing an overcard out there regardless and would have to play the flop accordingly.
  9. #9
    my first thought is, play the 10+1 or move to PS. Dont waste your money on a 20% rake.

    my second thought is how in the world could you be having trouble beating the 5+1 at PP?

    read Dav's guide

    be super tight early: you want to avoid races and unnessecary risks, unless you think the other players are better than you(They all suck here)

    be super agressive late(blinds get huge, you already know this)

    learn how to do this without being compleatly obvious(make the change fast and strong, dont give em time to figure out what your doing, dont steal everything, pick the right ppl to push around)

    if you are playing only 1 at a time(how are you having trouble playing 1 5+1 at a time?) you should be paying more attention to the other players and your own table image ... this is unessesary though because the players all suck. It will let you play more hands though, because you can get better reads. But honestly, if you cant beat these than quit and do something else. Also ... get into the 10+1 NOW ... the 5+1 is just stupid.
  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Trebor
    my first thought is, play the 10+1 or move to PS. Dont waste your money on a 20% rake.

    my second thought is how in the world could you be having trouble beating the 5+1 at PP?

    read Dav's guide

    be super tight early: you want to avoid races and unnessecary risks, unless you think the other players are better than you(They all suck here)

    be super agressive late(blinds get huge, you already know this)

    learn how to do this without being compleatly obvious(make the change fast and strong, dont give em time to figure out what your doing, dont steal everything, pick the right ppl to push around)

    if you are playing only 1 at a time(how are you having trouble playing 1 5+1 at a time?) you should be paying more attention to the other players and your own table image ... this is unessesary though because the players all suck. It will let you play more hands though, because you can get better reads. But honestly, if you cant beat these than quit and do something else. Also ... get into the 10+1 NOW ... the 5+1 is just stupid.
    Quit because I'm still learning? Wow so helpful.

    I tried playing a $10-$1 last night and I was SS'd with 4 people left, all in with pocket aces, called with pocket 7s and he flopped a set. Bad beat I know but it happens, when my money runs out on PP I am defiantly moving to PS. Thanks being so upfront but could have been a little easier on me. I've only been playing 5 months.
  11. #11
    black666's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    60
    Location
    Vienna, Austria (Europe)
    @trebor: I guess you were a winning player right from the beginning and we will see you at the wsop this year? No? Well, if you cant beat these than quit and do something else

    @coxhed: don't worry, I know exactly what you are going through. I also have some poblems beating the $5 sngs. Just recently I've lost 7 sngs in a row. It's especially frustrating when you get kicked out at the last place before the money by a maniac calling you all the way down with trash - only to catch his miracle card

    I think the problem here are the maniacs. You can beat 1 or 2 of them, but a table full of them? Plus, don't try to bluff too much at this level ... I can't count the number of times where I had the big stack on the table and was trying to buy a pot or steal some blinds - they will call you with anything!
    Just be patient at the beginning and let the first 2-3 players eliminate themselves, see if you can win some medium pots, and as soon as people are afraid about busting out right before the money you can begin to steal some blinds and pots - but don't raise to big, just enough that they won't go all-in on you, smelling a chance to double up. You don't wanna take coinflips at this stage of the sng and against those kind of players. Protect your stack at all times. Don't be KingKong and risk you position.

    btw: yesterday I played 5 1-table 5$ SnGs gettint a 1st place and a 3rd place. I could have placed ITM in 1 or 2 other of them, if it were not for some stupid mistakes I wrote above. I had the chip lead and was raising big, playing like Superman, got called down by trash hands and I had to lay down my hands or got beaten 'til the river. Add a stupid mistake or two and there goes the dominant position, and you have to fight for your life like the rest of the table
    It's not like a cash game, where you can come back from a mistake or where you can camp all night long waiting for monsters. That's why I had an easy time at ring and problems at SnGs .. but I'm adapting, learning every day...

    Just remain focused during the whole game and when faced with a big raise or all-in bet ask yourself "do I really want to risk half or full of my stack on this hand?". A 1-table SnG is pretty tricky, you don't have much room for coming back from a mistake - before you know it, the table is shortstacked, the BB is 10% of your stack and you are being pushed around by the other players.
  12. #12
    Thanks black666, I was in the IRC chat this morning with a couple of members and played a $10-$1 single table SnG and a member helped me out. I placed 2nd, then busted out in 4th and then 3rd. I learned a lot from them helping me out and what not. When I get off work this morning we shall see how I do again.

    Thanks again.
  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Resources
    Quote Originally Posted by CoxhEd
    when I get a good hand, nothing on the flops it seems like.
    6. late tourney is another ball game. i guess i'll start with the bubble. when it gets down to the bubble, if i'm short stacking - i play with no fear. the only raise that big stacks will respect is AI. find your spot, pull the trigger, and pray. i don't really have any good tatics for short stacks on the bubble, maybe somebody else can elaborate on this one.

    Not that am an expert but here's a good tactic I follow if I am short stacked on the bubble (4 players)

    note: this only works against "thinking players" but has worked great for me so far.

    Lets say 3 people at around 4k me at around 1.5k blinds 150/300 (actual example from a sng yesterday)

    I make my "steals" without going all-in. I raise 3BB just as I would if I had a real hand and normal stack. even if that leaves me with 1-2 BBs left and totally pot commited (of course am willing to go all in on most of these hands but some times it can be a pure steal) it really makes people think. "WTF didnt he go all in, he has like 0.6k left now." Same aplies for stealing pots on the flop. I have 1K I bet 800. People tend to forget about my stack (an the fact that am essentially all-in) and treat this as a "normal bet". "Would I call 800 on the flop with this hand?"--->fold

    I think its mostly phycological. All-in from the short stack is usually interpreted as desparation. "hey this guy just got Ace high/King high and is pushing". Pushing is what short stacks are supposed to do all the time. Normal raising though can sometimes be interpreted as a real hand.

    Dont know if this is any help, last time I did it it worked great and I build a nice stack so I could play normally. It doesnt always work but hey, you are the short stack!
  14. #14
    Thanks everyone.

    Since I have been reading FTR and taking this help I have moved up to $10-$1 SnGs and have placed in more than half of them. I have still yet to hit first but I have been ITM.

    I appreciate all of this and I just ordered 2 books so hopefully it helps me out.

    Thanks again.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •