The rebuy/add-on dilemma... Take 2

[chardrian]

Like I said before I'm the only advocate here for not rebuying and not adding on. My theory is you get to play a tourney and if you just make the money then you're actually making money (as compared to basically just getting your entrance fees back if you do rebuy and add-on).

I've been playing the $30 rebuy/add-on MTT at paradise lately which has a guarantee pool of $50,000.

Came in 13th tonight and took home a little over $400 in profit.

But... I came so agonizingly close to real money (8th place won almost 1,400 - 1st was over 11,000), that I am maybe, just maybe rethinking my theory.

[boost]

you are wrong, period. It just doesnt make sense. Chips are worth more then the cost to add on/rebuy. The reason is, more chip leverage directly relates to your potential to finish in the tourney. This does not mean you NEED 10k after break, you can still make it with less. The thing is, putting yourself in a position to win is the only way you are going to win, and you do that by giving yourself an edge. The reason you play the way you play is to have an edge on the other players. If you are a really good player, plus you have more chips then everyone else, you have an even better chance of winning.

[vqc]

Like I said before.

Rebuying and adding on puts more chips onto ur table. If you are a good player you can build ur stack significiantly by taking back all those chips that you lost playing loose aggro.

add that onto wat boost said, and you will have to change ur R/A tourney strategy.

[drmcboy]

I think you're wanting someone to come in with a Sklanksy like formula that says (buyin * addon = +EV).. maybe it exists but the reason you're "the only one" is because all of us have seen with our own two eyes the power of chips. I don't need a formula to know that if I'm going into a pot with two guys who have 5000 chips each, I'm more able to take the pot away if I have 10K, and if we all make hands I can break them.

With your results in these tourneys I assume you must know that too, so I still think this is a bankroll issue. You like the re buy prizes but not the re buy price to buy in.

[chardrian]

Yes I would love a formula - I agree that there probably isn't one out there.

Honest engine it's not a bankroll issue. Bankroll is now ~ 3700, so I'm ok pitching out 90 for a tourney.

And yes, believe it or not, I DO understand the concept of chip leverage.

What it really comes down to for me, is whether or not you truly are getting value for that re-buy or add-on. And I don't think you are. If that re-buy and add-on had moved me up 6 spots last night, it woulda been well worth it - but I'm not sure it would have. The whole goal in these big tourneys, for me, is to make the final 7 (that's here the money gets really big). To do that you are going to need to make it to a blind level of around 20-40,000 (I got knocked out when I called an all-in when I had the BB at 30,000 and my chip stack was like 75,000 - I felt I was too invested in the pot to fold and if I did fold I would no longer be able to steal blinds anwyays because I only woulda had about a blind left). By the time we got down to 20-30 players, it simply became a blind stealing, push all-in game.

Anyways... I understand that the re-buy and add-on can help you get to that amount of chips, but by the time you are there those 4,000 extra chips are really insignificant.

I'm gonna stick with my theory a little while longer at least. I'll keep posting my results (this week I made the money once and busted out twice).

[gabe]

Honest engine it's not a bankroll issue. Bankroll is now ~ 3700, so I'm ok pitching out 90 for a tourney.

The standard BR for mtts is 100 buyins. You don't even have half that much.

Let say you only play in 300 person tournaments. You are much better than the average player, so you can expect to win 1 out of every 60. Variance tells us that unless you get lucky enough to win one of the first you play in, your bankroll will bust.


Just so you know, the $10 r/a every night on stars averages a first prize of around 15k.

[chardrian]

It's a $30 entrance fee - I have over 100 buyins. Although I am surprised the standard BR is that high. I have always tried to play by not ever betting over 10% of my BR a day - you are saying when it coems to MTTs not to bet over 1% of my BR?

And how many people are in the pokerstars tourney? Is it unlimited rebuys? What's the deal - how's the winner get so much? At paradise you would need a prize pool of about 60,000 to get that big of a first place payout. At the $30 rebuy/addon that usually means between 600-700 players. Are there like 2,000 players at the nightly poker starts tourney?

[drmcboy]

4,000 extra chips

You're thinking about this wrongly. You turned the 1500 chips into 75000. Why couldn't you have turned the extra 2500 into 75000 more? I'm guessing a few times you doubled through big stacks - the first time you double through they become 8K, next time 16K, next ... you don't need me to keep this up.

Even if you are the big stack - let's hop off after you've turned the 4000 into 8000. Total stack is 28000. You bust someone with 24000 chips. With no rebuy/AO, you would have been at 20K and doubled to 40. with the extras, you're at 44. That extra 4K can steal you some blinds if you're playing aggressive, or buy you some orbits if you're not.

Maybe you folded to a raise at some point with connectors in position, but if you'd had the extra 4-8 K you'd have called and busted someone's AA. Maybe that 4K buys you a limped pot when everyone's checked it to you.

[boost]

and its an extra 3500 not 2500 (atleast at stars.)

And yes the rebuys are unlimited at stars, plus its a 10$ rebuy so people arent so afraid to chip in an extra 10$. A lot of pros actually use the strategy to go all in every hand until hte double up twice in a row, then tighten up and just look to build thier stack. I dont liek this strategy I think its a waste. However these people are what fuel me, they allow me to play semi tight, and on a good night I only had to buyin+rebuy(so I start with3000)+addon, however sometimes my rockets get cracked or my AKs doesnt hit or whatever, so I have to rebuy. The thing is, if you rebuy, its not a big deal. The chips that you lost are still at your table. Its like an investment, you are just letting them hold those chips. If you enter the second hour with only 6k, thats not great, however if your table has a buncha 12k 20k 15k stacks then thats good you have so many people to double on, your table is chip rich. Having a chip rich table is almost as good as having a lot of chips yourself!

[chardrian]

I agree a chip rich table is nice. That's why I like the rebuy/add-on tourneys. The tables are always chip rich after the first hour. At paradise you start with 1500 chips. Rebuy gets you 1500 more. Rebuys are unlimited for the first hour, but you can only rebuy if you have 1500 or fewer chips. Add-on is 2500 chips. Hence 4000 chips total.

I'm still curious how poker stars gets such a huge first place prize with only a $10 buyin.

I know no one agrees with my theory - that's cool. I understand what everyone is saying. For now, I'm still going with what works for me. I'm gonna start stop playing other tables while I play the tourneys and requesting my hand histories so i can see exactly what a rebuy and add-on would have done for me. I'll keep posting.

[Curtis-E]

rebuy formula plain and simple

Buy in, make instant rebuy, and then add on at the end of rebuy round.
If you bust out before the add on, too bad, quit and don't rebuy. Anyone trying to justify this rebuy is just plainly too opptimistic, and bad at math.

Let's say the buy in is $10. After 5 minutes you bust out. Time for a rebuy right? Well sure if you want to rebuy at the cost of $50. You have to take into consideration the guys who have 5000 chips or more at this point. So you rebuy for 1000 more chips at $10 right? Nope, that rebuy is equivelent to $50 because of the chip lead they have.

You can continue to try and justify why your rebuy's make sense, but it is one of the worst move's a guy can make. Why the hell would you rebuy and be a 5 to 1 chip underdog when you could simply just sign up for another tournament and get equal chip odds? Sure you could make up the difference, but you will break your bank playing this way, no doubt.

[Cavalry21]

My theory is you get to play a tourney and if you just make the money then you're actually making money (as compared to basically just getting your entrance fees back if you do rebuy and add-on).

I don't play many MTTs and even fewer rebuys, and for me it is a BR issue, so this may be way off base, but to me it sounds like you shouldn't be concerned with "making" money when you just clear the bubble. Alot of the good tourney players here talk about getting very aggressive on the bubble when everyone else tightens up because their goal is 1st place, not just ITM. Seems like this is your goal too, so why not take every advantage at getting there, and just set the the "bubble" for yourself higher up in the standings.

[scgolfer]

Curtis, If your theory is right why are all the top MTT players, here at FTR all willing to risk at least 4 to 5 times the buyin no matter what the buyin happens to be. Soupie, Radashack, Micheal1123, Myself, Ripptyde, and numerous others have better proven results than anyone who uses your "lose your buyin and quit theory" The proof is in the pudding, if you are better than the field you should always keep playing, and thus rebuy.

[chardrian]

Curtis, If your theory is right why are all the top MTT players, here at FTR all willing to risk at least 4 to 5 times the buyin no matter what the buyin happens to be. Soupie, Radashack, Micheal1123, Myself, Ripptyde, and numerous others have better proven results than anyone who uses your "lose your buyin and quit theory" The proof is in the pudding, if you are better than the field you should always keep playing, and thus rebuy.

This question is for all the top MTT players then - have any of you consistently NOT rebought or added on ... or is your rebuy at all costs theory based soley on chip leverage/I'm better than u?

I am not doubting that you are making a profit playing MTTs by rebuying and adding on - I am still curious if maybe (just maybe) your profit would be even higher if you didn't rebuy or add-on.

[gabe]

Curtis, If your theory is right why are all the top MTT players, here at FTR all willing to risk at least 4 to 5 times the buyin no matter what the buyin happens to be. Soupie, Radashack, Micheal1123, Myself, Ripptyde, and numerous others have better proven results than anyone who uses your "lose your buyin and quit theory" The proof is in the pudding, if you are better than the field you should always keep playing, and thus rebuy.

This question is for all the top MTT players then - have any of you consistently NOT rebought or added on ... or is your rebuy at all costs theory based soley on chip leverage/I'm better than u?

i know others keep saying it, but chip leverage is not really what its about. its more about bringing lots of chips to your table, so if you are one of the better players you can win all the chips back.

[a500lbgorilla]

Play for first, not the money.

-'rilla

[allLiving]

Bottom line, when it comes to MTT experience, you know that rebuys and addons and building stacks is necessary for surviving and expanding in late tourney play. You can read all the books you want, memorize formulas, study statistics, and be a Sklansky fan, but nothing beats hours of experience. If you play to just get ITM in an MTT, you're playing to not be a succesful poker player. You play for 1st, and only 1st.

[allLiving]

This question is for all the top MTT players then - have any of you consistently NOT rebought or added on ... or is your rebuy at all costs theory based soley on chip leverage/I'm better than u?

I am not doubting that you are making a profit playing MTTs by rebuying and adding on - I am still curious if maybe (just maybe) your profit would be even higher if you didn't rebuy or add-on.

The proft margin from not rebuying/adding on would be insignificant compared to rebuying/adding on. That's a vague comparison too, considering that maybe sometimes you win an MTT after busting out 3 times and rebuying each time spending 6x the buyin + 1 addon. You can't make this stuff complicated or else you're gonna hurt yourself. You WANT more chips, and the R/A is pocket change for the most part since your bankroll should be able to stomach it easy. If you have a $100 roll and you're playing $10 R/A, you have terrible bankroll management and you need help. Also listen to gabe, he's got the more chips at the table ideal right on the money. It's so true, the huge stacks, and chip leveragers come from tables rich in rebuys and chips.

[chardrian]

I need to clear one thing up. I DON'T play just to make the money. My point was IF I make the money without rebuying and adding on than I have actually gained something... it is like playing a $30 tourney for the payout structure of a $100 tourney.

However, my point is NEVER to just make the money. I wanna win the whole damn thing - everytime. No point in playing if you don't wanna win it. In fact, if I were to rebuy and add-on I am a little concerned I would become like a majority of the players who I am up against and turn into a total tight ass pansy when it came to bubble play just to make sure I didn't lose multiple buy-ins. When you only have one buy-in at stake, it is much easier to make the right move and change into major aggressive mode when everyone else is just handing over their (at this point very big) blinds in order to save themselves from losing multiple buy-ins.

[Hubris1]

Its like playing a ring game and only buying in for the minimum; actually its even more nonsensical because chips directly translate to strength in a tourney, a ring game they're a more transient thing. If you don't like rebuying play FOs, you're putting yourself at a huge disadvantage.

You can play tight or you can play maniac, but you should rebuy once no matter what.

[Curtis-E]

Okay folks, tell me which tournament you would rather play in.

Tourny #1 Buy in $11. you get 1500 in chips. All other players have 1500 chips.

Tourny #2 Buy in $11 you get 1500 chips, but more than 30 people get 3000 chips, and some even have 5000. Two guys also get 7000 chips.


Obviously you would have to be a moron to join tournament #2 when you are getting equal chip stacks in tourny #1. This is exactly what rebuying is.
When you rebuy, you are str8 killing yourself. The only time it makes any sense is when you drive an hour to a Brick and Mortar casino and bust out early. You are still getting horrible odds, but you can't just jump into another tournament.

Online, you have about 1000 choices. Why the hell would you rebuy into a tourny where you are going to be a huge dog, when you can just log into another room and start playing a tourny with equal odds. Seriously folks, this is like 6 th grade level math.

REbuy's are for losers. Sure maybe you have won a few here and there, but it is quite obvious anyone who uses the rebuy option is not maximizing his chances to win.

[vqc]

are you arguing for freeze outs instead of rebuy toruneys curtis-e, because thats essentially what your argument is, correct?

I hope you realize that the prize pools in R/As are much bigger than freezeouts. This also changes the way R/A tournaments are supposed to be played.

[scgolfer]

Curtis why do the best online players always play in rebuy tournaments, and always rebuy? They could play anywhere anytime? ITS BECAUSE THE ARE THE MOST PROFITABLE.

[TylerK]

This thread is retarded. And it had potential once...I'm sure of it.

[vqc]

Curtis, If your theory is right why are all the top MTT players, here at FTR all willing to risk at least 4 to 5 times the buyin no matter what the buyin happens to be. Soupie, Radashack, Micheal1123, Myself, Ripptyde, and numerous others have better proven results than anyone who uses your "lose your buyin and quit theory" The proof is in the pudding, if you are better than the field you should always keep playing, and thus rebuy.

This question is for all the top MTT players then - have any of you consistently NOT rebought or added on ... or is your rebuy at all costs theory based soley on chip leverage/I'm better than u?

i know others keep saying it, but chip leverage is not really what its about. its more about bringing lots of chips to your table, so if you are one of the better players you can win all the chips back.

DAMN U GABE!!! I said that in the 3rd poST! Have u been watching my vids by the way?