Busted out early with Big slick - bad push?

[chardrian]

Here's the hand:

Game #836806573 - Tournament $20,000 R&A - 10/20 No Limit Texas Hold'em -
2005/05/22-12:06:14.6 (CST)
Table "$20,000 R&A 21" (MTT) -- Seat 5 is the button
Seat 1: DJDaveCee (3,430 in chips)
Seat 2: chardrian (1,480 in chips)
Seat 3: Girlpwr68 (1,480 in chips)
Seat 4: hardhanded (2,680 in chips)
Seat 5: Sunshine88 (1,450 in chips)
Seat 6: hexxer (2,980 in chips)
Seat 7: frumpdogg (1,500 in chips)
Seat 8: >roughrider< (3,000 in chips)
Seat 9: CA$EY (1,500 in chips)
Seat 10: harpur (1,500 in chips)
hexxer : Post Small Blind (10)
frumpdogg: Post Big Blind (20)
Dealing...
Dealt to chardrian [ Kd ]
Dealt to chardrian [ Ah ]
>roughrider<: Fold
gustos said, "hey dj need 90"
CA$EY : Fold
harpur : Call (20)
DJDaveCee: Fold
chardrian: Raise (80)
Girlpwr68: Raise (140)
hardhanded: Fold
Sunshine88: Fold
hexxer : Fold
frumpdogg: Call (120)
harpur : Call (120)
chardrian: Raise (1,400)
Girlpwr68: Call All-in (1,340)
frumpdogg: Fold
harpur : Call (1,340)
*** FLOP *** : [ 6c Ks 5d ]
*** TURN *** : [ 6c Ks 5d ] [ 7s ]
*** RIVER *** : [ 6c Ks 5d 7s ] [ 3s ]
chardrian said, "lol"
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: 4,590 | Board: [ 6c Ks 5d 7s 3s ]
DJDaveCee didn't bet (folded)
chardrian lost 1,480 (showed hand) [ Kd Ah ] (a pair of kings)
Girlpwr68 lost 1,480 (showed hand) [ Ac Jc ] (high card ace)
hardhanded didn't bet (folded)
Sunshine88 didn't bet (folded)
hexxer lost 10 (folded)
frumpdogg lost 140 (folded)
>roughrider< didn't bet (folded)
CA$EY didn't bet (folded)
harpur bet 1,480, collected 4,590, net +3,110 (showed hand) [ 3d 3c ] (three
of a kind, threes)

When Girlpwr raised me I put her on A lower kicker. Frump and harpur I was just trying to get them out and figured (hoped) they had suited connectors or low pockets and would fold to my re-raise. Dumb push in this spot or ok?

By the time the bet came back to me the pot was around 500 and I was at 1400 chips. Hindsight says a call there and a push on the flop would've given it to me - but was a call making the hand fourhanded really the way to go?

[a500lbgorilla]

I'm always willing to gamble early on in a tourny with AKo preflop for all my chips.

GAMBOL!

-'rilla

[SnoT_III]

All you can do is put in your chips with the best hand. Unfortunetly for you, you didn't have the best hand. The other caller had one of your outs so the pockets had a pretty good chance of winning. Either way it's just a gamble. I don't like races, and avoid them whenever possible.

[gabe]

you played it fine. you tried to push to isolate the big stack, and that idiot with the 3s called and got lucky. who calls an allin with 33 after two other allins?????

[chardrian]

All you can do is put in your chips with the best hand. Unfortunetly for you, you didn't have the best hand. The other caller had one of your outs so the pockets had a pretty good chance of winning. Either way it's just a gamble. I don't like races, and avoid them whenever possible.

According to your theory everyhand is just a gamble then. How is AK versus A lower kicker a race? The whole point of the all-in was to avoid the race. It just didn't happen because as gabe said an idiot (in this case named harpur) called with 33 with two callers in front all-in.

[homerdash]

How is that guy an idiot? It's a rebuy tourney! Oh wait, you're the guy that doesn't rebuy or addon in the REBUY & ADDON tourneys. Mr. 33 isn't calling there in a freezeout setting...

[gabe]

How is that guy an idiot? It's a rebuy tourney! Oh wait, you're the guy that doesn't rebuy or addon in the REBUY & ADDON tourneys. Mr. 33 isn't calling there in a freezeout setting...

touche, i didn't read as much as i should have.

[Rondavu]

Uh oh, it's another "I don't need no stinkin flop with AK" thread.

This was a huge mistake. There's no reason to push all-in with AK preflop unless your getting blinded out. NEVER do it unless your absolutely deperate. Don't go all in with anything but KK or AA preflop when your stack is healthy.

There's nothing like getting run down by a high stack holding 22 with AK in hand because you want to race unimproved. Don't do it. You got what you deserved. If you were just calm and called 120, then you would have caught the flop K and bought 33 out of the pot.

Simma down Gambla

[chardrian]

How is that guy an idiot? It's a rebuy tourney! Oh wait, you're the guy that doesn't rebuy or addon in the REBUY & ADDON tourneys. Mr. 33 isn't calling there in a freezeout setting...

Gotta say - now you guys have me really confused. I understand why you think I'm a total retard for not rebuying and adding on... I am completely clueless as to why you think calling with 33 in this situation is fine simply because it is a rebuy and add-on. Are you saying the theory of the rebuy and add-on is to make stupid decisions for the first hour because you know you can't be knocked out?

The guy's an idiot because he had two all-ins in front of him and he said what the hell with a 33. If and only if his read was so good that he realized we both had Ax, then his call is ok - he was a little better than 1 in 3 to win. I don't care if it is a rebuy or a freezeout tourney - 33 with two all-ins in front of you is at best an ok call.

[chardrian]

Uh oh, it's another "I don't need no stinkin flop with AK" thread.

This was a huge mistake. There's no reason to push all-in with AK preflop unless your getting blinded out. NEVER do it unless your absolutely deperate. Don't go all in with anything but KK or AA preflop when your stack is healthy.

There's nothing like getting run down by a high stack holding 22 with AK in hand because you want to race unimproved. Don't do it. You got what you deserved. If you were just calm and called 120, then you would have caught the flop K and bought 33 out of the pot.

I agree - sort of. Remember, I put the original re-raiser on A lower kicker, so there was a REASON to pushing all-in. I thought I had the dominant hand. I got bit in the ass because my read was incorrect that the two callers behind us would fold. Oh well, that's poker.

[gabe]

Uh oh, it's another "I don't need no stinkin flop with AK" thread.

This was a huge mistake. There's no reason to push all-in with AK preflop unless your getting blinded out. NEVER do it unless your absolutely deperate. Don't go all in with anything but KK or AA preflop when your stack is healthy.

There's nothing like getting run down by a high stack holding 22 with AK in hand because you want to race unimproved. Don't do it. You got what you deserved. If you were just calm and called 120, then you would have caught the flop K and bought 33 out of the pot.

Simma down Gambla

You push allin to eliminate a positional disadvantage postflop and to guarantee you see all 5 cards.

[SnoT_III]

All you can do is put in your chips with the best hand. Unfortunetly for you, you didn't have the best hand. The other caller had one of your outs so the pockets had a pretty good chance of winning. Either way it's just a gamble. I don't like races, and avoid them whenever possible.

According to your theory everyhand is just a gamble then. How is AK versus A lower kicker a race? The whole point of the all-in was to avoid the race. It just didn't happen because as gabe said an idiot (in this case named harpur) called with 33 with two callers in front all-in.

Ohh was he the second person to call the all in or the first? I thought he saw two people go all in and then had to make the decision of wether to call or not.

[chardrian]

1) I raise

2) I get re-raised (but a pitiful reraise)

3) Two people call the re-raise.

4) I push all-in (thinking I have re-raiser dominated).

5) Re-raiser calls (and is dominated).

6) One caller folds.

7) Other caller calls with just 33.

That's the hand. You are correct that I didn't have the best hand preflop, but that's only in hindsight. I wasn't thinking of it as a gamble - I was thinking I was going to either win the pot there, or go heads up against the original reraiser and I thought I had him/her beat. The bad part of my play was giving too much credit that the low pockets would fold.

[RHCNNN]

WTF?!
Admittedly I just skimmmed through most of this, but I'm stunned that anyone would say the guy with 33 is not an idiot. Calling all in with pocket 3s with 2 all ins in front of him is a disgusting play. He had every reason to believe he was absolutley dominated by an overpair and at BEST had to dodge 4 overcards. Horrible call.
I can just hear the imbecile right now "Hey.... I won didn't I?" AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH the stupidity makes my brain hurt.

[vqc]

WTF?!
Admittedly I just skimmmed through most of this, but I'm stunned that anyone would say the guy with 33 is not an idiot. Calling all in with pocket 3s with 2 all ins in front of him is a disgusting play. He had every reason to believe he was absolutley dominated by an overpair and at BEST had to dodge 4 overcards. Horrible call.
I can just hear the imbecile right now "Hey.... I won didn't I?" AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH the stupidity makes my brain hurt.

Its a RA tourney. If its during the rebuy period, popele have done crazier things. Yes, the "idiot" who called with the 33 was definitely hoping that he would see 4 overcards. Hopefully even something like AK v KQ. If he loses, he can just rebuy.

[pantherhound]

if he put them both on Ax, then pot odds just about dictate that he should call.

but, he was a moron because nobody could have possibly made that read online.

[chardrian]

if he put them both on Ax, then pot odds just about dictate that he should call.

but, he was a moron because nobody could have possibly made that read online.

[gabe]

you guys dont seem to understand. its a rebuy tournament. if he loses, he will just bring more chips to the table. there are no bad plays during the rebuy period.

[chardrian]

you guys dont seem to understand. its a rebuy tournament. if he loses, he will just bring more chips to the table. there are no bad plays during the rebuy period.

So you ARE advocating a play like a retard theory for the first hour in a rebuy. Sorry - this seems even more retarded than my advocating for not rebuying or adding on. If you never care about losing during the first hour than you should be pushing every single hand you play. 56 suited all-in. JQ os all-in. Any pocket pair all-in. The fact that you CAN re-buy doesn't mean that you should be DUMB. 33 with two all-ins in front of you is dumb in any type of tourney. If he loses and rebuys then I can just take his chips again - keep rebuying, I like the chip rich theory, cuz you make me richer in chips. I guess this is my whole point as to why NOT rebuying so often works for me.

[Rondavu]

you guys dont seem to understand. its a rebuy tournament. if he loses, he will just bring more chips to the table. there are no bad plays during the rebuy period.

I agree. It's similar to the beginning of a large freeroll. It's move in poker at it's worst. I think chardrian was correct in calling a dominated hand all in, but incorrect in assuming heads up would be granted given the lunacy of an environment with "nothing to lose" attributes.

[Rondavu]

If you never care about losing during the first hour than you should be pushing every single hand you play. 56 suited all-in. JQ os all-in. Any pocket pair all-in.

Yep, sounds about right. I've seen people push with all of those.

[homerdash]

Risking the cost of a rebuy for the chance to triple up VERY early (very early by the stack sizes) seems like a good time to me, hastur can't assume someone has a dominating PP because it's a freakin' R&A! Tripling up early is huge!

This thread is the entire reason I don't usually play rebuys, all your general knowledge goes straight out the window because people freak out when they don't have to leave the table if they lose.

[Rondavu]

people freak out when they don't have to leave the table if they lose.

Ya you MUST have that fear of elimination mixed in or the most important aspects of poker cease to apply.

[TylerK]

This was a huge mistake. There's no reason to push all-in with AK preflop unless your getting blinded out. NEVER do it unless your absolutely deperate. Don't go all in with anything but KK or AA preflop when your stack is healthy.

This is wrong, do you see why?

[RHCNNN]

even if it is a rebuy, the point is to take gambles that have a decent chance of inreasing your chip count. Not to just piss away chips because you'll still get to play.
And with pocket 3s in that situation he should have* felt that he was a big underdog. Basically he was hoping to God that noone had an overpair, and that he could dodge 4 overcards plus straights/flushes of any sort. Calling all in with flush draws after the flop and such are probably things you would do in rebuy period as opposed to the situation you'd need for that in regular tourney play.

[Rondavu]

This was a huge mistake. There's no reason to push all-in with AK preflop unless your getting blinded out. NEVER do it unless your absolutely deperate. Don't go all in with anything but KK or AA preflop when your stack is healthy.

This is wrong, do you see why?

It's only wrong if you mean calling low stacks all in for the purpose of elimination. It is a good assasination hand. In that light it was the right move if he wasn't being covered deep by someone else in hand.

[gabe]

" The fact that you CAN re-buy doesn't mean that you should be DUMB. "
again, you fail to see the point. the point is not to lose chips. this style of play (pushing with 56s, 33, QJo) can build a huge stack, and if that fails, it will bring alot of chips to your table which you can win back with skillful play later in the tournament.

"If he loses and rebuys then I can just take his chips again - keep rebuying"

56s wins almost half the time against AKo. Pushing with these bad hands doesn't mean just giving your chips away. They do win, and you also get even more chips when you get your good hands paid off with a maniac image.

i wish someone who plays rebuy madness every night on stars would comment on this. i'm not saying its the best way to play, but there are alot of really really good players who are succesful doing this. nsxt2, wsop2005 (who has a wsop bracelet for christs sake), michael1123, rippy, jennicide and countless others.

[gabe]

This was a huge mistake. There's no reason to push all-in with AK preflop unless your getting blinded out. NEVER do it unless your absolutely deperate. Don't go all in with anything but KK or AA preflop when your stack is healthy.

This is wrong, do you see why?

It's only wrong if you mean calling low stacks all in for the purpose of elimination. It is a good assasination hand. In that light it was the right move if he wasn't being covered deep by someone else in hand.

No, this is just wrong. Any successful rebuy player will tell you that love getting all their chips in with AK in the rebuy hour of a tournament.

[chardrian]

even if it is a rebuy, the point is to take gambles that have a decent chance of inreasing your chip count. Not to just piss away chips because you'll still get to play.
And with pocket 3s in that situation he should have* felt that he was a big underdog. Basically he was hoping to God that noone had an overpair, and that he could dodge 4 overcards plus straights/flushes of any sort. Calling all in with flush draws after the flop and such are probably things you would do in rebuy period as opposed to the situation you'd need for that in regular tourney play.

Have you somehow tapped in to my brain? I should just stop answering and let you answer for me. I agree 100%. Yes homer, tripling up is huge - but do you really risk it with such a lousy hand - you are basically saying I need to spike a set when you are calling 33 in this situation. Might as well call with 46os.

[gabe]

33 wins 42% of the time vs AK and AJ, 46o only wins 31%

[ilikeaces86]

Well to the original question. Yes you push all in with AK in the rebuy period.

[chardrian]

" The fact that you CAN re-buy doesn't mean that you should be DUMB. "
again, you fail to see the point. the point is not to lose chips. this style of play (pushing with 56s, 33, QJo) can build a huge stack, and if that fails, it will bring alot of chips to your table which you can win back with skillful play later in the tournament.

"If he loses and rebuys then I can just take his chips again - keep rebuying"

56s wins almost half the time against AKo. Pushing with these bad hands doesn't mean just giving your chips away. They do win, and you also get even more chips when you get your good hands paid off with a maniac image.

i wish someone who plays rebuy madness every night on stars would comment on this. i'm not saying its the best way to play, but there are alot of really really good players who are succesful doing this. NSXT2, wsop2005 (who has a wsop bracelet for christs sake), michael1123, rippy, jennicide and countless others.

I would agree with you, except for the VERY IMPORTANT FACT that this hand was NOT heads up. It was 3-way. He was looking at either about a 1 in 5 shot (if there was a higher pocket pair), a 1 in 3 shot (4 over cards), or a 2 in 5 shot (the hand that actually played here). I guess all I am saying is that because the chance of me or the first raiser having a higher pocket pair when I raised and then pushed all-in to a re-raise which was immediately called is so high, that I would tend to think my 33 was only a 1 in 5 shot and not worth the call. Then again he's only losing about 13% to pot odds with this call so an argument can (and clearly is) being made that this call was not as bad as I am saying it was.

What I don't agree with, is the idea that pissing your chips away during the first hour is fine, since you can rebuy. By pissing them away, you are still putting yourself at a disadvantage because now you have to win an extra hand to get those chips back (which is exactly what my theory of not rebuying and adding on is based on - you just need to win one extra hand). Funny how things come full circle eh?

[chardrian]

33 wins 42% of the time vs AK and AJ, 46o only wins 31%

Either way you need to make the correct read that the two all-ins ahead of you ACTUALLY have AJ and AK.

[chardrian]

Well to the original question. Yes you push all in with AK in the rebuy period.

Ok - that's what I wanted to hear.