QQ with 2 AIs

[TLR]

Hi

Here's a hand that I ran into and I would like to hear views about:

9 people $5 Sng, early stages (still 9 people in)

You are sitting at the CO with QQ, 1500 chips (average stack)
A few people fold, the short stack (350) from MP goes all in
Another players goes all in for 1800

On the short stack your assumpion is that he will go AI with any decent hand. You have no read on the other player
What would you do ?

[ZenOffsuit]

Tough one. I would be curious why he would push all in to isolate for 350 chips. If I had Aces or Kings, I would probably just call the all-in and get someone else to come in. I would guess he has A/K or A/Q or a mid pocket (9's-js)

I could be way off but I would believe that I am ahead w/ Qs and call.

[Rondavu]

Lay it down. When I say lay it down, I mean lay it down even if your sure it's the best hand. You haven't committed any chips yet, and it's not good to race with QQ for all your chips. He could have AK and out pops a K. See ya later. Nice playing with ya.

QQ is a fine gamble if your willing to die right there. I'd rather outplay my opponents when the blinds are high later on. If I watched a guy risk all his chips at this stage with QQ and win, then I'd congratulate him and rape his stack later.

[TanO]

Yeah lay it down, its probably the best hand preflop but (guess) its only going to hold up one third of the time if one guy has a King and the other guy has an Ace.

[ZenOffsuit]

lol! Please disregard my previous post!

Honestly, if this situation came up for me, I am not sure how quickly I would call.....easier to discuss then actually do. But one thing I am trying to do is go with my reads and play accordingly. NSXT2(Todd Arnold) of http://www.realpokertraining.com has a great quote:
"Never laydown a hand in fear of what's to come. Laydown when you think you are beat."

Maybe I am carrying that idea to the extreme here but if I think I am ahead then this applies......

This early in a tournament, he would probably do exactly what you said Rondavu.

[Corey]

I woulda pushed.

I normally play balls to the wall.

ZENoffsuit since this guy Todd has posted here I will let the solicitation to his site go. Please be careful when soliciting other sites.

[SnoT_III]

What are your reads on these people? If the short stack just lost a big hand then he is probably going to pull it with any marginal hand. Then the other person going all in on top DOES NOT want anyone else to call. I think I would call, best case scenario being they both have an ace with a lower kicker than a king, but more than likely you are facing a pp and ak. In the long run, i think it is the right move to call.

[ZenOffsuit]

I woulda pushed.

I normally play balls to the wall.

ZENoffsuit since this guy Todd has posted here I will let the solicitation to his site go. Please be careful when soliciting other sites.

Sorry Corey, it was more just to explain who Todd is in case people are saying: "who the hell is this guy and why should I care what his quote is!"

I'm folding here.

2 all ins in front of you (ok so one could really be rags), but one is putting your whole tournament at risk. Do you really want to risk your tournament by CALLING an all-in with QQ? No!! You still have a deep stack compared to the blinds, there is no need to take a risk like that without a read this early on.

[chardrian]

I agree with the fold in theory.

But theory schmeery. $5 SNG. QQ? I'm all-in. There are only three hands that you are worried about. AA, KK, or AK. Of those three, AK is the only one that would really concern me. I'm thinking you have about a 2-1 chance that your hand is a huge dominator. For $5 I call.

[a500lbgorilla]

It's too close to accurately pick one choice over the other. It comes down to your read, in the absence of that I'd say fold. Use your chips to steal some blinds and all that jazz.

-'rilla

[Corey]

I woulda pushed.

I normally play balls to the wall.

ZENoffsuit since this guy Todd has posted here I will let the solicitation to his site go. Please be careful when soliciting other sites.

Sorry Corey, it was more just to explain who Todd is in case people are saying: "who the hell is this guy and why should I care what his quote is!"

no worries i am a member of his site as well...

[journey075]

play for first not in the money. call.

short stack is in a push/fold situation. he would do the same with 8s and higher. 1800 has aj or some other garbage, but not against a short stack all in, hand.

you have a chance to more than double up here. im calling every time.

[vegaas2]

This early in tournament, I would fold. Let them knock each other out and then out play the winner for his stack. The only thing I would go all in with this early is AA.

Why go all in when all the players are still there. If you believe you can win the tourney, why risk getting beat by AA, KK, AK, this early when you dont have a read on one of the players.

Now if you are down to say 6 or less, and now you really have a read, then all in.

Just my humble opinion.

[journey075]

This early in tournament, I would fold. Let them knock each other out and then out play the winner for his stack. The only thing I would go all in with this early is AA.

Why go all in when all the players are still there. If you believe you can win the tourney, why risk getting beat by AA, KK, AK, this early when you dont have a read on one of the players.

Now if you are down to say 6 or less, and now you really have a read, then all in.

Just my humble opinion.

if you wont call a push with QQ early in a tourney, i dont know what youre doing. youre going to let one or two guys amass all the chips and youll be left with 1k chips when everyone else has 6k..uh oh blinds are getting high. 88? damn, i go all in. aw, he busted me with jacks.

shortstack in a tourney is never ever a good place to be. take the gamble.

[vegaas2]

This early in tournament, I would fold. Let them knock each other out and then out play the winner for his stack. The only thing I would go all in with this early is AA.

Why go all in when all the players are still there. If you believe you can win the tourney, why risk getting beat by AA, KK, AK, this early when you dont have a read on one of the players.

Now if you are down to say 6 or less, and now you really have a read, then all in.

Just my humble opinion.

if you wont call a push with QQ early in a tourney, i dont know what youre doing. youre going to let one or two guys amass all the chips and youll be left with 1k chips when everyone else has 6k..uh oh blinds are getting high. 88? damn, i go all in. aw, he busted me with jacks.

shortstack in a tourney is never ever a good place to be. take the gamble.

Well, I disagree. Now if this were a turbo tournament were blinds increase rapidly, then by all means yes, do it. Turbo tourneys are all about coin flips. However; if this is a normal tourney, then you have plenty of time to amass your chips. Normal tourneys are not sprints, they are marathons.

Also notice that I mentioned that later in the tourney that he should do it, but right now he doesnt know anything about player 2. Why risk a wild card early in the tourney when you can make more well informed decisions later.

It all comes to your philosiphy. I just finised T.J. Cloutier's book, and I am firmly in his camp.

This is what makes poker so interesting, everyone has their own thoughts and styles.

[chardrian]

This early in tournament, I would fold. Let them knock each other out and then out play the winner for his stack. The only thing I would go all in with this early is AA.

Why go all in when all the players are still there. If you believe you can win the tourney, why risk getting beat by AA, KK, AK, this early when you dont have a read on one of the players.

Now if you are down to say 6 or less, and now you really have a read, then all in.

Just my humble opinion.

if you wont call a push with QQ early in a tourney, i dont know what youre doing. youre going to let one or two guys amass all the chips and youll be left with 1k chips when everyone else has 6k..uh oh blinds are getting high. 88? damn, i go all in. aw, he busted me with jacks.

shortstack in a tourney is never ever a good place to be. take the gamble.

Well, I disagree. Now if this were a turbo tournament were blinds increase rapidly, then by all means yes, do it. Turbo tourneys are all about coin flips. However; if this is a normal tourney, then you have plenty of time to amass your chips. Normal tourneys are not sprints, they are marathons.

Also notice that I mentioned that later in the tourney that he should do it, but right now he doesnt know anything about player 2. Why risk a wild card early in the tourney when you can make more well informed decisions later.

It all comes to your philosiphy. I just finised T.J. Cloutier's book, and I am firmly in his camp.

This is what makes poker so interesting, everyone has their own thoughts and styles.

This isn't a MTT - it's a 9 player SNG. Take this sucker's chips now and you are basically guaranteeing yourself first or second. If you lose - oh well that's poker... and your table image is enhanced for those that might meet up with you again.

[journey075]

This early in tournament, I would fold. Let them knock each other out and then out play the winner for his stack. The only thing I would go all in with this early is AA.

Why go all in when all the players are still there. If you believe you can win the tourney, why risk getting beat by AA, KK, AK, this early when you dont have a read on one of the players.

Now if you are down to say 6 or less, and now you really have a read, then all in.

Just my humble opinion.

if you wont call a push with QQ early in a tourney, i dont know what youre doing. youre going to let one or two guys amass all the chips and youll be left with 1k chips when everyone else has 6k..uh oh blinds are getting high. 88? damn, i go all in. aw, he busted me with jacks.

shortstack in a tourney is never ever a good place to be. take the gamble.

Well, I disagree. Now if this were a turbo tournament were blinds increase rapidly, then by all means yes, do it. Turbo tourneys are all about coin flips. However; if this is a normal tourney, then you have plenty of time to amass your chips. Normal tourneys are not sprints, they are marathons.

Also notice that I mentioned that later in the tourney that he should do it, but right now he doesnt know anything about player 2. Why risk a wild card early in the tourney when you can make more well informed decisions later.

It all comes to your philosiphy. I just finised T.J. Cloutier's book, and I am firmly in his camp.

This is what makes poker so interesting, everyone has their own thoughts and styles.

This isn't a MTT - it's a 9 player SNG. Take this sucker's chips now and you are basically guaranteeing yourself first or second. If you lose - oh well that's poker... and your table image is enhanced for those that might meet up with you again.

i agree. and i just wanted to do a quadruple quote.

[vqc]

play for first not in the money. call.

short stack is in a push/fold situation. he would do the same with 8s and higher. 1800 has aj or some other garbage, but not against a short stack all in, hand.

you have a chance to more than double up here. im calling every time.

this whole idea of "play for first not the money" is taken wayyyyy to far soemtimes.
This is still early in an SNG. He has 1500 chips. 9 players. Im pretty sure this is a POkerstars Tourney. This isnt a "play for first not the money" moment. He has so much time to amass a stack its ridiculous to be coin flipping so early on. You can take the "suckers" money later on too when hes a big stack and he doenst kno how to play it.

Just becuase you double up early on does not guarantee you first or second place, that is a ridiculous assumption. You are better off staying in the tournament and building ur stack.

Chardrian, im not sure what you mean my "dominate" but agaistn the range of hands that the PUsher and the Raiser have, you dont "dominate", you coin flip. Big difference.

Furthermore the OP never posts what the blinds are at. "Early on" in an SNG could mean that the BB is anywhere from 10-60. If the BB is still at 20, the "Small STack" isn tin a very desperate situaion, and his range of ahnds to push with would be much much smaller.

[vqc]

What range of hands Do you insta push with, and what range of hands do you fold?

Is JJ a hand that you would push with here?

[vegaas2]

play for first not in the money. call.

short stack is in a push/fold situation. he would do the same with 8s and higher. 1800 has aj or some other garbage, but not against a short stack all in, hand.

you have a chance to more than double up here. im calling every time.

this whole idea of "play for first not the money" is taken wayyyyy to far soemtimes.
This is still early in an SNG. He has 1500 chips. 9 players. Im pretty sure this is a POkerstars Tourney. This isnt a "play for first not the money" moment. He has so much time to amass a stack its ridiculous to be coin flipping so early on. You can take the "suckers" money later on too when hes a big stack and he doenst kno how to play it.

Just becuase you double up early on does not guarantee you first or second place, that is a ridiculous assumption. You are better off staying in the tournament and building ur stack.

Chardrian, im not sure what you mean my "dominate" but agaistn the range of hands that the PUsher and the Raiser have, you dont "dominate", you coin flip. Big difference.

Furthermore the OP never posts what the blinds are at. "Early on" in an SNG could mean that the BB is anywhere from 10-60. If the BB is still at 20, the "Small STack" isn tin a very desperate situaion, and his range of ahnds to push with would be much much smaller.

My point exactly. Its way too early to coin flip.

[allLiving]

There is no right or wrong answer here unfortunately. The balls to the wall, aggressive side of me says to push. This re-raise AI most often than not is not AA or KK, because they like to lure people into pots. His re-raise AI could be a possible from 77-QQ, or AJ, AQ, AK.. I call this and most the time I'll knock out two players.

The conservative side of me says to fold this since you are gambling, and could put your chips in at a better spot. You might be up against AK and be at a coin flip.

However in the end, I will go with the aggressive approach. This person re-raising AI is just trying to get YOU to fold your hand. That means he want's a headsup hand, and his hand isn't all that strong compared to your QQ. I honestly CALL this and expect to win most the time here, and with that being a huge chip leader at the table putting yourself in a great position to not only be ITM, but take home 1st place. The conservative approach COULD help you get ITM, but who wants to weasle their way through poker tourneys to squeeze out a little profit here and there. Take some risk, enjoy a thrill of losing every once in a while knowing you're way ahead and have a good chance to take out some suckers.

[chardrian]

play for first not in the money. call.

short stack is in a push/fold situation. he would do the same with 8s and higher. 1800 has aj or some other garbage, but not against a short stack all in, hand.

you have a chance to more than double up here. im calling every time.

this whole idea of "play for first not the money" is taken wayyyyy to far soemtimes.
This is still early in an SNG. He has 1500 chips. 9 players. Im pretty sure this is a POkerstars Tourney. This isnt a "play for first not the money" moment. He has so much time to amass a stack its ridiculous to be coin flipping so early on. You can take the "suckers" money later on too when hes a big stack and he doenst kno how to play it.

Just becuase you double up early on does not guarantee you first or second place, that is a ridiculous assumption. You are better off staying in the tournament and building ur stack.

Chardrian, im not sure what you mean my "dominate" but agaistn the range of hands that the PUsher and the Raiser have, you dont "dominate", you coin flip. Big difference.

Furthermore the OP never posts what the blinds are at. "Early on" in an SNG could mean that the BB is anywhere from 10-60. If the BB is still at 20, the "Small STack" isn tin a very desperate situaion, and his range of ahnds to push with would be much much smaller.

1) I said basically guaranteeing - I'm assuming he's a good player which means over 30% he's taking first or second anyways - with that big of a chip lead early you are putting yourself in a very very strong position (is that better?) to at least finish second.

2) Coin flip? My ass. Sure you might be in a "coin flip" to lose 300 chips pusher has a K and raiser an A, but you are dominating to basically double up. AK from the raiser is the only hand I'm really worrying about here, and it is probably more likely that he has a lower pocket pair or a hand worse than AK which I am dominating. There's also a decent chance that both pusher and raiser have As which are knocking the odds more in my favor... And even if he does have AK - so what? It's close to a coin flip, but it's actually more like 3 to 2. I'll take it.

[k8s]

Call. It's early in a Sit N Go; if you bust out, go enter another one. Winning this will take you over 3000 chips, allowing you to bully around other stacks.

I think it's less likely for someone to raise AI with KK or AA, because they want callers. A lot of players overplay small pocket pairs, even as weak as 55 in the $5 Sit N Go's. I think you dominate a lot more than your dominated, and if by chance he does have AK, take the coinflip. If you win, you're in a good position to get ITM/first. If you don't, you can simply enter another tourney.

[Staple Gun]

I would fold, you dont wanrt a coinflip here but i think your dominated. I have seen so many people in $5 sng's go all-in into small pots with AA or KK, you might have a coinflip or you might be dominated, but i think you win this hand about 30% of the time, because your usually dominated. If this was turbo though its an easy call because he would go all-in with worse.

[koolmoe]

Don't know much about the play at this buy-in level, but at the $30 or $50 level, the push by the player with 1800 makes it more likely that his hand is weak. I'd call.

[vqc]

play for first not in the money. call.

short stack is in a push/fold situation. he would do the same with 8s and higher. 1800 has aj or some other garbage, but not against a short stack all in, hand.

you have a chance to more than double up here. im calling every time.

this whole idea of "play for first not the money" is taken wayyyyy to far soemtimes.
This is still early in an SNG. He has 1500 chips. 9 players. Im pretty sure this is a POkerstars Tourney. This isnt a "play for first not the money" moment. He has so much time to amass a stack its ridiculous to be coin flipping so early on. You can take the "suckers" money later on too when hes a big stack and he doenst kno how to play it.

Just becuase you double up early on does not guarantee you first or second place, that is a ridiculous assumption. You are better off staying in the tournament and building ur stack.

Chardrian, im not sure what you mean my "dominate" but agaistn the range of hands that the PUsher and the Raiser have, you dont "dominate", you coin flip. Big difference.

Furthermore the OP never posts what the blinds are at. "Early on" in an SNG could mean that the BB is anywhere from 10-60. If the BB is still at 20, the "Small STack" isn tin a very desperate situaion, and his range of ahnds to push with would be much much smaller.

1) I said basically guaranteeing - I'm assuming he's a good player which means over 30% he's taking first or second anyways - with that big of a chip lead early you are putting yourself in a very very strong position (is that better?) to at least finish second.

2) Coin flip? My ass. Sure you might be in a "coin flip" to lose 300 chips pusher has a K and raiser an A, but you are dominating to basically double up. AK from the raiser is the only hand I'm really worrying about here, and it is probably more likely that he has a lower pocket pair or a hand worse than AK which I am dominating. There's also a decent chance that both pusher and raiser have As which are knocking the odds more in my favor... And even if he does have AK - so what? It's close to a coin flip, but it's actually more like 3 to 2. I'll take it.

I dont know how exactly you mean by dominating to double up.

here are the 3 cases that could possibly occur
You win
The 1800 stack wins
The small stack wins

If the small stack pushes
77+, ATo+, ATs+ (Too loose in my opinion)
If the big stack pushes
TT+, AJo+, AJs+ (Also too loose in my opinion)
And you push with
QQ

THe Odds of
The Small STack winning are 23.811%
The Big Stack winning 29.894%
You WInning 46.296%

How are you dominating to win?
24% of the time you lose 350 chips
30% of the time you are out
46% of the time you double up.

Dominating to double up?

What the Small stack pushes with is entirely dependant on the blind size, which the OP has declined to post. Therefore the range of hands could vary greatly.

Truthfully, Id be happy to call the all in. The problem is, when I look at my own analysis, Im not going to be happy with the results more than half the time. Whats even worse is that I know i can outplay the table at least half the time to win the money if I just keep my 1500 chips and not risk it on this all in.

[TLR]

vqchuang

In case you called and the small stack wins you are still ahead, you lost 350 to the short stack and gained 1150 from the big stack - total profit of 800

[TLR]

the actual cards in the hand:

Small stack had T9
Large stack had AK
QQ called

K fell on the turn

[journey075]

the actual cards in the hand:

Small stack had T9
Large stack had AK
QQ called

K fell on the turn

i really hope that post wasnt supposed to be a 'see, i told you...the conservative play was the best one' post.

AK was the BEST possible hand this guy coulda been holding. honestly i woulda put him on AQ, AJ or KQ. some hand where its worth risking knocking somebody out but not one that you want multiway. if he had KK or AA, he wants it heads up with as many people as possible. if he just calls and you push, he has it heads up with 2 people essentially since theyre seperate pots.

its a coinflip that youre slightly favored for. its also a tourney. im surprised you didnt have him dominated but theres no way in hell AA or KK pushes in this situation.

[Wet_DreaMer]

I would call.

Only cause I suck.

=)

[poskid_1982]

I would call.

Only cause I suck.

=)

Ditto

[ZenOffsuit]

the actual cards in the hand:

Small stack had T9
Large stack had AK
QQ called

K fell on the turn

I still don't feel bad for calling because....it means I read the hand right and I was ahead. And I will go back to the quote I listed before by NSXT2:

"NEVER lay down a hand in fear of what's to come. Laydown when you think you are beat."

If this situation came up at the midway point of the game, would it be ok then? How about on the bubble? If you have a read and you know you have the best hand....play it.

[chardrian]

How are you dominating to win?
24% of the time you lose 350 chips
30% of the time you are out
46% of the time you double up.

Ok I haven't checked your stats - but they look about right to me. The most important number there is 30% you are out. I think what you are failing to look at is the 24% of the time you lose to small stack, you are still winning from big stack. So 70% you are gaining here, and about half the time you are doing better than doubling up. Call.

[ihategnomes]

QQ is a fine gamble if your willing to die right there.

You cant live unless you are willing to die.

[DWDuck]

I think you have to call here. Assuming there is agreement on the above analysis.... if you're folding with an expected 70% win rate... well what the hell are you waiting for?

Darkwing

[Corey]

jeez ppl.

either you have balls to push with QQ or you dont..

You were a favorite preflop. quit critisizing this fucking play!

Favorite preflop, you cant say anything more about this except he hit his card on the turn.

GG play another SNG

[Corey]

"NEVER lay down a hand in fear of what's to come. Laydown when you think you are beat."

This is the exact reason why he called. HE felt that he was ahead and gambled.

Now with all your antics with these long post is garbage. Who gives a fat fuck about stats about dbl up triple up or anything.

He pushed with the best hand GG

[DWDuck]

Geez, who peed in your cornflakes this morning?

Darkwing

[Corey]

Geez, who peed in your cornflakes this morning?

Darkwing

nah everyone has a long conversation about odds, this and that, when its actually a simple answer...

[Alibi]

Call. It's early in a Sit N Go; if you bust out, go enter another one. Winning this will take you over 3000 chips, allowing you to bully around other stacks.

I think it's less likely for someone to raise AI with KK or AA, because they want callers. A lot of players overplay small pocket pairs, even as weak as 55 in the $5 Sit N Go's. I think you dominate a lot more than your dominated, and if by chance he does have AK, take the coinflip. If you win, you're in a good position to get ITM/first. If you don't, you can simply enter another tourney.

That's the wrong way to look at it. Blinds are still low. You will have plenty of hands coming up soon. Why take the risk? You just like throwing away money

[ihategnomes]

Why take the risk? You just like throwing away money

At this limit, I will take the risk with the 3rd best hand this game has to offer. Quit being so damn weak tight. I assume you only play AA or KK vs allins. With that theory, go ahead and fold KK, cause you might run into AA. For that matter, fold AA preflop, since 88 will call and hit a set anyways Moral of the story... You gotta take some risks.

[Fortune 500]

I'm going along for the ride on this one... as an early poster said, a huge raise with AA or KK doesn't make a lot of sense here. Maybe a minimal raise to sweeten the side pot, but I'd say he's on AK at best, and there's a good chance he and the Short stack are splitting Ace outs here.

Call. No question about it in my mind.

Later in the tourney with a good read on the AI guy I might lay it down. Early in a 5 dollar SNG?

Grab your sack, push your stack, and hope for the best.