Aggression and Reads

[fjuanl]

I play pretty tight in SnG's during the beginning, and try to pick up the aggression towards the end. I think pre-flop my game is pretty sound, I know when its a good/bad time to steal blinds, what hands to call/raise with etc. Towards the beginning, I have plenty of time to figure out the betting patterns and style of each person in the tourney, since I'm playing very few hands. Sometimes I feel like I'm not even playing the tournament because I'm so engadged on finding people's patterns, tells, style...which I think helps me. I may be on a streak of bad cards, but I doesnt even effect me because I'm so focused on discovering new things about my opponents. My post flop play is fairly good, but I am not the best at pinpointing someone to an EXACT hand, which is a big factor in wheter or not I'm 1st or 3rd.

When I get towards ITM is ususally where my thinking starts to get more illogical. When its 3-4 people, the game is a lot faster and I'm playing a variety of hands. When a try for a post-flop steal, I find it very hard for me to get a read on the person I'm heads up with, if they just call me. For example :

In on the button : AhQh

I raise 3xbb and get 1 caller, the BB.

FLOP : Th 4c 6d

I lead out with around a pot sized bet and my opponent calls. How do I play this hand now? Its likely that my oppnent has an overpair, middle pocket pair, or is cold calling a set. Part of me is thinking, lead out with a stronger bet, he has Ax, KQ, QJ, KJ and will lay it down after I show him my flop bet wasnt just a bluff. The other side of me is thinking, that cold call seems suspicious, I think he has an overpair or hit a set. Why would he call me, a tight player, with a flop like that? How can you accurately put someone on a hand in this type of situation? Obviously aggression is needed in order to win a tournament, but if your just playing reckless, you could lose all your chips in one hand. Advice?

[homerdash]

That board is pretty ragged and if he does have a pocket pair, it's probably good at this point. Also, why are you making a pot-sized bet on the flop? There's no flush draw and barely a straight draw so what hand are you protecting? This hand is an example of strong = weak. With those cards and that flop, I'd make a 1/2 pot bet on the flop and a bet on the turn if it's checked to you. Otherwise, gotta figure that ace-high is no good and get out.

[LeFou]

Since you don't mention the size of the blinds/stacks, it seems like you're not taking that into consideration. In a hand like this, it is critical.

Opp calling a 3BB PFR with only 12 BB in hisher stack is very different from the same call with 25 BB. You betting 6 BB to steal the pot is one thing if you've got 10BB left, quite another if you've got 30.

With little stacks, you're almost definitely behind. Opp's call means TPGK or at least AK.

With big ones, another stab on the turn could be just the thing. A flat call on this flop doesn't mean an overpair/set. It could be 4 or 6 (opp playing AXs?), pair<T, his own inferior overcards ... all sorts of things.

Oh ... also it depends on the turn card.

[Rondavu]

Bad flop, no draw, no pair. If I didn't hit I check. No need to stubborn your chips off on an ugly flop. Your opponent can easily read that you didn't hit anything. On this board if you had a T you would push all your chips in immediately. Anything else is a tell that your bluffing, or an indication you have high pocket pair. He's gambling you don't have a high pocket pair.

This is the antithesis of representing a broadway card on the flop. Flops with one broadway card are easy to play. You represent the card and if your opponent has it you get raised and get away. Flops that help no one are deep bluffing boards if you choose to continue on the flop. It's difficult to steal on rag boards when 4th or 5th street come down after betting a rag flop. If you bet out on the flop you discount your ability to represent a broadway card that hits on the turn or river.

In limit hold-em, you bet out your draw to build a pot and get action when you make your hand. In that same vein, if you bet out on a flop that didn't help you, and then your card hits on the turn your more likely to get action on it because your opponent won't believe you have it.

Just imagine how disasterous it is when you bet out a flop, a broadway card comes that isn't yours, and you've lost your ability to represent it. If you check the flop, and then represent a broadway card on the turn your more likely to make your opponent a believer because you were honest abe on the flop.

[chardrian]

Except for the fact that you didn't mention chip stacks - I like this post. Rondavu makes a lot of good points, but... there's always two sides two a coin. Checking that flop basically just surrenders it. You made the correct move with the raise pre-flop. Button is either gambling, or just hates giving up position this late in a SNG. Flop sucks for you, but can it help the button? As long as you are not raising the flop every single time you raise preflop (which was a huge leak in my game), I like the bet on the flop to try and take it down. It didn't work here - and you don't have a great read on the coldcaller (and that call is ugly ugly ugly)... so slow down. IMHO, the ability to let go of a nice preflop hand after making two stabs at it is one of the major humps in becoming a winner. It also can give you some more information about what your opponent has.

[Rondavu]

Checking that flop basically just surrenders it.

You could also check raise this flop for a stronger read.

[fjuanl]

Thanks for the advice guys. In this situation, I was short stacked but I still had about 20-30 BB's. Opponent was the big stack. The next card I believe was another Ten, it was checked to me again, and I threw out the same as the pot bet, and then got re-raised. I got out of the hand, but I lost over half of my chips on it =/

[vqc]

Bad flop, no draw, no pair. If I didn't hit I check. No need to stubborn your chips off on an ugly flop. Your opponent can easily read that you didn't hit anything. On this board if you had a T you would push all your chips in immediately. Anything else is a tell that your bluffing, or an indication you have high pocket pair. He's gambling you don't have a high pocket pair.

This is the antithesis of representing a broadway card on the flop. Flops with one broadway card are easy to play. You represent the card and if your opponent has it you get raised and get away. Flops that help no one are deep bluffing boards if you choose to continue on the flop. It's difficult to steal on rag boards when 4th or 5th street come down after betting a rag flop. If you bet out on the flop you discount your ability to represent a broadway card that hits on the turn or river.

In limit hold-em, you bet out your draw to build a pot and get action when you make your hand. In that same vein, if you bet out on a flop that didn't help you, and then your card hits on the turn your more likely to get action on it because your opponent won't believe you have it.

Just imagine how disasterous it is when you bet out a flop, a broadway card comes that isn't yours, and you've lost your ability to represent it. If you check the flop, and then represent a broadway card on the turn your more likely to make your opponent a believer because you were honest abe on the flop.

this is a briliant post.

[chardrian]

Point taken (I think). I too advise the check on that flop the majority of the time. Just saying, the bet on the flop can work as well. My point about the info came from my last two SNG's. Not saying this will work everytime but here's an example:

4 players left in SNG. I am big stack but not by much - 3 of us have about 3,000, low stack about 1,000. Blinds increase next hand. I get AQ, raise 3x BB to 600. Button calls. I bet 800 (2/3 of pot) on flop of 56J rainbow. Button calls. We now both have a little more than what the guy in 4th place has. Turn is a K. I check, button checks. I sense major weakness on that turn check (rather than sensing woo hoo I caught my K). River is a 2. I don't put the guy on 34 so I'm not thinking the 2 hurts me much. I pushed all-in (somewhere around 1,500) thinking this guy either has 78 or that he has me beat... but he doesn't want to finish in fourth. Guy folded.. guess who won this SNG?

[Rondavu]

I bet 800 (2/3 of pot) on flop of 56J rainbow. Button calls. We now both have a little more than what the guy in 4th place has. Turn is a K. I check

You made a mistake by not overbetting on the flop. If you actually had JT or even AJ, you are vulnerable with this flop. Your bet doesn't say vulnerable jack it says no jack or inexperienced person holding a jack. This is why you're opponent called.

Checking the turn King actually made your opponent believe you had a jack and were now afraid of the King. When he checked behind and you bet the river hard he just figured you really did have the jack and cut his losses.

One of the biggest indicators of a bluff in progress is when someone bets the flop, and then when an overcard hits on an uncoordinated turn they act like it didn't faze them and bet out irregardless of the overcard. If your hand was flop strong enough to withstand an overcard dropping on the turn, you probably would have slow played. Nice try I'm going over the top.

So in retrospect you played the hand perfectly on the turn to set up a river steal. But for god sakes, if your going to bluff a board jack high or lower, overbet it to make them think your holding a vulnerable jack or ten. 2/3 pot doesn't cut it here.

Bluffing a rag flop is risky deep pocket business

[ihategnomes]

You made a mistake by not overbetting on the flop.

I guess I dont understand this. This is a perfect flop for a middle pocket pair, I doubt an AJ would overbet this. Your overbet would come off fishy looking, as there is really nothing you want to scare out of this hand, except if you didnt have a J. Could you explain this a bit more, Im just not down with it, yet. What kind of stack did the BB have?[/quote]

[chardrian]

I bet 800 (2/3 of pot) on flop of 56J rainbow. Button calls. We now both have a little more than what the guy in 4th place has. Turn is a K. I check

You made a mistake by not overbetting on the flop. If you actually had JT or even AJ, you are vulnerable with this flop. Your bet doesn't say vulnerable jack it says no jack or inexperienced person holding a jack. This is why you're opponent called.

Checking the turn King actually made your opponent believe you had a jack and were now afraid of the King. When he checked behind and you bet the river hard he just figured you really did have the jack and cut his losses.

One of the biggest indicators of a bluff in progress is when someone bets the flop, and then when an overcard hits on an uncoordinated turn they act like it didn't faze them and bet out irregardless of the overcard. If your hand was flop strong enough to withstand an overcard dropping on the turn, you probably would have slow played. Nice try I'm going over the top.

So in retrospect you played the hand perfectly on the turn to set up a river steal. But for god sakes, if your going to bluff a board jack high or lower, overbet it to make them think your holding a vulnerable jack or ten. 2/3 pot doesn't cut it here.

Bluffing a rag flop is risky deep pocket business

Hmmm - very very iiiinteresting. But I think you give most players too much credit and forget that we are now down to four players - of course this flop sucks in a multiplayer hand, but not as scary heads-up. You don't need to worry about both the J and the str8 draw - its one or the other. After seeing how this hand played out, I am almost positive the guy had 78 suited, TJ or JQ. My 800 2/3 pot bet was perfect. IF I had bet the pot, he wouldv'e moved all-in. Instead he (foolishly) waited to try and suck me out. K on turn and he fears my check. Blank on river and when I all-in he now really fears. If he had 78 it was a duh duh fold. But I think he actually had TJ or JQ from the way he had been playing. He put me on the K and folded.

[stuck]

Bad flop, no draw, no pair. If I didn't hit I check. No need to stubborn your chips off on an ugly flop. Your opponent can easily read that you didn't hit anything. On this board if you had a T you would push all your chips in immediately. Anything else is a tell that your bluffing, or an indication you have high pocket pair. He's gambling you don't have a high pocket pair.

This is the antithesis of representing a broadway card on the flop. Flops with one broadway card are easy to play. You represent the card and if your opponent has it you get raised and get away. Flops that help no one are deep bluffing boards if you choose to continue on the flop. It's difficult to steal on rag boards when 4th or 5th street come down after betting a rag flop. If you bet out on the flop you discount your ability to represent a broadway card that hits on the turn or river.

In limit hold-em, you bet out your draw to build a pot and get action when you make your hand. In that same vein, if you bet out on a flop that didn't help you, and then your card hits on the turn your more likely to get action on it because your opponent won't believe you have it.

Just imagine how disasterous it is when you bet out a flop, a broadway card comes that isn't yours, and you've lost your ability to represent it. If you check the flop, and then represent a broadway card on the turn your more likely to make your opponent a believer because you were honest abe on the flop.

This is also why raising rags occasionally (and showing) helps with playing these profitably. If people know you'll raise with trash, they may just believe you when you bet out on a raggy board.

[Rondavu]

You made a mistake by not overbetting on the flop.

I guess I dont understand this. This is a perfect flop for a middle pocket pair, I doubt an AJ would overbet this. Your overbet would come off fishy looking, as there is really nothing you want to scare out of this hand, except if you didnt have a J. Could you explain this a bit more, Im just not down with it, yet. What kind of stack did the BB have?

When your late in a tourney, and every pot is huge, you have to protect a pair of jacks on a flop. Usually the pot is large enough to be satisfied with and you just want to take it down immediately. There's nothing worse than seeing a Q, K, or A fly off and lose a pot because you didn't chase a person out holding Kx or Ax. Therefore, you overbet it. If the pot is 800 you bet 1000. Same thing goes for a ten high flop holding AT. Now if your opponent has a set he's going to give it away right here by coming over the top. It's like Fnord says in his great post. You gotta drop the hammer!

Personally, I don't know why anyone worries about sets. Just bet like they don't exist and they'll reveal themself. Fear of a set is what keeps a set well hidden.

[Rondavu]

Raising rags occasionally (and showing) helps with playing these profitably. If people know you'll raise with trash, they may just believe you when you bet out on a raggy board.

Well stated. Exactly the case. I won a huge pot yesterday with this in a multitable. Raised 67 offsuit. caught two pair on rainbow rag flop.

[Chicago_Kid]

Checking that flop basically just surrenders it.

You could also check raise this flop for a stronger read.

You should try the "tricky-check". If you do a slightly longer pause, I've gotten people to check me down. Then I stab hard at it on the turn.

It sounds silly, but you'd be surprised how many people get spooked when you do this, particularly if you have an aggressive table image.

The other night, after my tricky flop check, and subsequent med/strong turn bet, I had a guy, chat "I have a feeling my 9's are no good." I had no pair.

[Rondavu]

Checking that flop basically just surrenders it.

You could also check raise this flop for a stronger read.

You should try the "tricky-check". If you do a slightly longer pause, I've gotten people to check me down. Then I stab hard at it on the turn.

It sounds silly, but you'd be surprised how many people get spooked when you do this, particularly if you have an aggressive table image.

The other night, after my tricky flop check, and subsequent med/strong turn bet, I had a guy, chat "I have a feeling my 9's are no good." I had no pair.

Such a valuable addition to the arsenal. Coincidentally, every check I do has a long pause because I'm picking my nose reading wallpaper. The people on the table start putting me on aces, but I'm really just peeling dead skin off my feet. They fold and I chat "Ya, ya I had aces. Lucky you for folding on a check option."