Stealing the blinds from UTG?!?!

[Fnord]

"Ttanaka raised from UTG once, I never saw the table fold so fast!" - random Showdown quote.

Middle of a multi-table tourney, blinds are high, table is pretty full (9-7 players) and for the most part the idiots are gone.

Aware players know you should play tigher under the gun, hence they give under the gun raises more respsect. This creates an interesting oportunity. Given that you know they know that, should you be slightly more willing to raise UTG with a relevent stack (such that calling is a difficult proposition)? What range of hands should you add (if any)? How does your chip position play into this decision?

[Fnord]

*********** # 75 **************
PokerStars Game #599146892: Tournament #2241263, Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2004/08/07 - 16:22:09 (ET)
Table '2241263 1' Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: sh80 (3810 in chips)
Seat 2: robe43 (2450 in chips)
Seat 4: scgolfer (5395 in chips)
Seat 5: maxxscam (1300 in chips)
Seat 6: HavinPhun (1825 in chips)
Seat 7: HenryFnord (1285 in chips)
Seat 8: cod3machin3 (2530 in chips)
Seat 9: CBBWW (3900 in chips)
maxxscam: posts small blind 100
HavinPhun: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HenryFnord [4c As]
CBBWW said, "CyaLater,Mangus"
HenryFnord: raises 1085 to 1285 and is all-in
cod3machin3: folds
CBBWW: folds
sh80: folds
robe43: folds
scgolfer: folds
maxxscam: folds
HavinPhun: folds
HenryFnord collected 500 from pot
HenryFnord: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 500 | Rake 0
Seat 1: sh80 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: robe43 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: scgolfer (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: maxxscam (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: HavinPhun (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: HenryFnord collected (500)
Seat 8: cod3machin3 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: CBBWW folded before Flop (didn't bet)

[DrNoChance]

I've thought about this often. TJ talks about it in his book. When you raise from the front, you get SO much more credit for having a hand. It never gets interpreted as a blinds steal. The problem is that there are several players yet to act who may have a monster they can call with.

What's the risk/reward ratio here? It's tough to say. And is raising AI with an ace hand a wise move or would a king hand make more sense? Isn't only a strong ace or a PP likely to call and does raising AI from the front with a king hand give you a better chance at having 2 live cards if called (to be a smaller dog)?

I've thought of raising from the front late in a tourney many times with K9o, 67s, and other such semi-garbage, but have never had the balls to do it more than once or twice. It worked the one time I remember trying it.

[maxxscam]

i think i had ace 7 on that hand fnord, and i was gonna go all in if no raises to me , but i thought, he is raising in first position he must have a monster.

[michael1123]

I steal blinds occasionally from early position as a big stack, but not with all ins. Any hand I want to play, as a big stack, I may raise 2xBB or 3xBB, even if the hand is pretty marginal.

As a short stack, if the hand is good enough for me to go all in with, I'd do it UTG as well.

I don't usually risk it as an average stack.

[heatman]

I've definitely been dissappointed to see my pre-flop raise UTG with AA, KK or other big hands fold everyone and leave me with the blinds. In some situations, I've started limping and hoping for a raise from a later position, just to make sure I get a few callers (there's an obvious danger there, I realize).

Seems pretty reasonable that it could work the other way around. What would you consider a typical UTG raise list? I guess I've pretty much been raising with:

Group 0: AA KK
Group 1: QQ JJ AKs
Group 2: TT AK (AQs) (AJs) (KQs )
Group 3: AQ (99) (ATs) (KJs) (QJs) (KTs)
Group 4: (88) AJ KQ (QTs) (A9s) (JTs) (AT) /A8s/
Group 5: KJ (77) /QJ/ /KT/ /QT/ /JT/ /A7s/ /K9s/ /Q9s/ /T9s/ /J9s/

() indicates hands I'd rather have a multi-way pot for anyway, so I usually don't raise - if I play them at all. // are hands I don't play UTG. What hands would you add or take off?

[Fnord]

() indicates hands I'd rather have a multi-way pot for anyway, so I usually don't raise - if I play them at all. // are hands I don't play UTG. What hands would you add or take off?

With those stacks and 100/200 blinds, do you ever want to play a multi-pot?

[Fnord]

Here's my read on the situation.

At ~T1200 chips costing T300 per orbit, if I fail to make a move this orbit, my stack pretty much loses its ability to take pots without showdown. With an Ace in hand that leaves 3 unseen.

Hands that call my UTG bet:
AA : 3 ways
KK - TT : 4 * 6 = 24 ways (TT is a stretch)
AK : 12 ways
AQ : 12 ways

Although lots of Ace hands dominate my weak Ace, I correctly figured a lot of them would not call out of fear of being dominated.

Against any of these hands except AA I have 3 outs, so all is not lost. Heck, I'm probably better off with Ace-rag than 22. Although being suited would be nice.

So basically, I'm betting no one at the table could call my bet, but if someone did all was not lost.

[DrNoChance]

Hmmm. I suppose I didn't factor that in....by having an ace in your hand that is one less ace to worry about somebody else having with a strong enough kicker to challenge you.

I still wonder if maybe a king hand is better for the bluff than the baby ace in SOME shorthanded situations. If you try this play with an ace hand and get called by a better ace you are hugely behind. If you push with something like KT or KJ (or even K-rag) and get called by a strong ace you are much less of a dog assuming it's not AK or some other rank match. You become a huge dog to KK vs. just a big dog though. My thinking only holds water if you're shorthanded/high blinds and people are now desparate enough to call all-ins with things like AJ and AT but NOT KQ. There might then be enough value in avoiding ace domination even though there now is another ace unaccounted for and therefore more possible hands to challenge you. Maybe I'm way out in left field with this theory, but just a thought.

[heatman]

() indicates hands I'd rather have a multi-way pot for anyway, so I usually don't raise - if I play them at all. // are hands I don't play UTG. What hands would you add or take off?

With those stacks and 100/200 blinds, do you ever want to play a multi-pot?

Sorry, I was thinking ring game. More of a general question than specific to this situation.

[Fnord]

I still wonder if maybe a king hand is better for the bluff than the baby ace in SOME shorthanded situations. If you try this play with an ace hand and get called by a better ace you are hugely behind. If you push with something like KT or KJ (or even K-rag) and get called by a strong ace you are much less of a dog assuming it's not AK or some other rank match.

Now you're getting somewhere.

This move is probably viable with suited connectors as well, the bigger the better.

[davfagan]

Hmm...I'm think that Fnord is trying to trick us all for the next FTR Showdown and the league. Getting it into our head, that maybe if he's raising from UTG, that he's stealing the blind, but maybe he has a monster, but maybe he's stealing! Oh No! What do I do?!?!, OK, I'll fold. I see what you're doing...and I don't think I like it

[johnnyawe]

I've definitely been dissappointed to see my pre-flop raise UTG with AA, KK or other big hands fold everyone and leave me with the blinds.

Yup. I always raise a max of 2x BB when I'm UTG if I'm looking for 1 or 2 callers. This would be in the mid stages of an SNG.

[Toasty]

Hands that call my UTG bet:
AA : 3 ways
KK - TT : 4 * 6 = 24 ways (TT is a stretch)
AK : 12 ways
AQ : 12 ways

Add to that:

AJs?/ATs? 2*4=8
KQs? = 4

For another 12 hands (I wouldn't call with these hands in an SnG btw, but I can't see the normal players folding these), so with these hands and your hands whats the odds someone is dealt at least one ?

Of course this also assumes the players actually play well, you would of course get people call you with Jxs because they "had a feeling".

[DrNoChance]

You need the right table image and the right group of opponents for this to be a +EV move. FTR Showdown was a perfect example of the right scenario.

Fnord's table image was strong, despite the fact that he was shortstacked. Everybody at his table probably has a clue both how he plays and how to play poker in general.

If you try this move at your average Party Poker SnG, who knows what they will call you with. The idea here is exploiting solid and/or weak-tight tables when your table image is decent.

[tjp]

sklansky wrote about this in the tournament poker for advanced players book; he calls it gap theory. I used to use it a lot in conjunction with a big stack when mostly solid players are left atound L4 or 5 in sng's, especially if your image is very tight. By making the minimum raise from early position or middle if it is folded to you can give the play a positive EV.