My last two hands in a big boy SNG

[chardrian]

Comment on the first hand especially. Clearly I'm not gonna fold for a min raise in that pot. My call was dumb, and I shoulda just called the turn after I just called the flop. But... how much should I have raised his flop bet?

Game #854649243 (Level III, Game #5) - 15/30 No Limit Texas Hold'em -
2005/06/06-21:04:03.0 (CST)
Table "Campana" ($100 tournament) -- Seat 4 is the button
Seat 2: Bennyt1061 (2,135.00 in chips)
Seat 3: doc74 (1,145.00 in chips)
Seat 4: chardrian (805.00 in chips)
Seat 5: sierra4015 (1,365.00 in chips)
Seat 6: Purrl (960.00 in chips)
Seat 7: -ESPN- (1,020.00 in chips)
Seat 8: Harley_West (460.00 in chips)
Seat 9: tara21 (950.00 in chips)
Seat 10: frankieboy9 (1,160.00 in chips)
sierra4015: Post Small Blind (15)
Purrl : Post Big Blind (30)
Dealing...
Dealt to chardrian [ Kd ]
Dealt to chardrian [ Ac ]
-ESPN- : Fold
Harley_West: Fold
tara21 : Fold
frankieboy9: Call (30)
Bennyt1061: Fold
doc74 : Call (30)
chardrian: Raise (155)
sierra4015: Fold
Purrl : Fold
frankieboy9: Fold
doc74 : Call (125)
*** FLOP *** : [ 2h 7c Jh ]
doc74 : Bet (30)
chardrian: Call (30)
*** TURN *** : [ 2h 7c Jh ] [ 9c ]
doc74 : Check
chardrian: Bet (220)
doc74 : Raise (440)
chardrian: Fold
doc74 : Winner -- doesn't show cards
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: 885 | Board: [ 2h 7c Jh 9c ]
Bennyt1061 didn't bet (folded)
doc74 bet 625, collected 1,105, net +480
chardrian lost 405 (folded) [ Kd Ac ] (high card ace)
sierra4015 lost 15 (folded)
Purrl lost 30 (folded)
-ESPN- didn't bet (folded)
Harley_West didn't bet (folded)
tara21 didn't bet (folded)
frankieboy9 lost 30 (folded)
-----------------------------------------------------
Game #854650872 (Level III, Game #6) - 15/30 No Limit Texas Hold'em -
2005/06/06-21:05:17.8 (CST)
Table "Campana" ($100 tournament) -- Seat 5 is the button
Seat 2: Bennyt1061 (2,135.00 in chips)
Seat 3: doc74 (1,625.00 in chips)
Seat 4: chardrian (400.00 in chips)
Seat 5: sierra4015 (1,350.00 in chips)
Seat 6: Purrl (930.00 in chips)
Seat 7: -ESPN- (1,020.00 in chips)
Seat 8: Harley_West (460.00 in chips)
Seat 9: tara21 (950.00 in chips)
Seat 10: frankieboy9 (1,130.00 in chips)
Purrl : Post Small Blind (15)
-ESPN- : Post Big Blind (30)
Dealing...
Dealt to chardrian [ Qh ]
Dealt to chardrian [ 4h ]
chardrian said, "big slick"
Harley_West: Fold
chardrian said, "poo"
tara21 : Fold
frankieboy9: Fold
Bennyt1061: Fold
doc74 : Call (30)
chardrian: Call (30)
sierra4015: Fold
Purrl : Fold
-ESPN- : Check
*** FLOP *** : [ 6h Jd 5h ]
-ESPN- : Check
doc74 : Check
chardrian: Bet (170)
-ESPN- : Raise (375)
doc74 : Fold
chardrian: Call All-in (200)
*** TURN *** : [ 6h Jd 5h ] [ 9d ]
*** RIVER *** : [ 6h Jd 5h 9d ] [ 9c ]
chardrian said, "drama"
-ESPN- said, "gg"
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: 845 | Board: [ 6h Jd 5h 9d 9c ]
Bennyt1061 didn't bet (folded)
doc74 lost 30 (folded)
chardrian lost 400 (showed hand) [ Qh 4h ] (a pair of nines)
sierra4015 didn't bet (folded)
Purrl lost 15 (folded)
-ESPN- bet 405, collected 850, net +445 (showed hand) [ Js Ks ] (two pair,
jacks and nines)
Harley_West didn't bet (folded)
tara21 didn't bet (folded)
frankieboy9 didn't bet (folded)

[stunt]

kinda hard to say for me because im not that experienced, but maybe raise like 200 or so, and see what he comes back at you with. if he was on the draw, im assuming he wouldnt call, or raise you like he did on the turn, but if he paired the j, then he might have called...possibly a raise if he had a high kicker? call me a fish if you want, but thats my take/suggestion on it

[vqc]

reraise the flop on the first hand to 90 if you are going to play. If not check fold it down. Aggro or nothing.

What the hell are doing with Q4s? Fold it preflop.
Push the flop.

[gabe]

reraise the flop on the first hand to 90 if you are going to play. If not check fold it down. Aggro or nothing.

What the hell are doing with Q4s? Fold it preflop.
Push the flop.

i like what he says.

[ngericl]

reraise the flop on the first hand to 90 if you are going to play. If not check fold it down. Aggro or nothing.

What the hell are doing with Q4s? Fold it preflop.
Push the flop.

i like what he says.

[digitaldoc]

reraise the flop on the first hand to 90 if you are going to play. If not check fold it down. Aggro or nothing.

What the hell are doing with Q4s? Fold it preflop.
Push the flop.

I totally agree with this. Also as a side note, you had 400 in chips after the first hand. Yes it stings to loose over half your stack, but you're still in this one. Blinds were only 15/30 so you had a little time to see some more cards before you were in push or fold mode.

AK unimproved is always a tough hand to play. You need to bet or raise to gather information here. If your opponent calls a post flop bet/raise then he has something and you can let it go easier. Very few people if any at all, can execute a Bluff Call Raise Turn/River play.

Just some random thoughts...

[vqc]

Very few people if any at all, can execute a Bluff Call Raise Turn/River play.

I dot it all the time
Except I do it on accident and when im not supposed to

[chardrian]

reraise the flop on the first hand to 90 if you are going to play. If not check fold it down. Aggro or nothing.

What the hell are doing with Q4s? Fold it preflop.
Push the flop.

I had raised 5X BB preflop and now just raise 3X BB on the flop? Seems weak to me - I don't see how he would fold and I'm not going to fire out again after he just calls. I think I shoulda checked the turn for one more free card and then made a decision on the river depending on his bet.

Q4 suited - I am now very chip deficient but still at a point where I can catch a hand and get back in it. Q4 suited is a hand to do this. Push the flop? Because I did over bet you are right. But... I actually should have just checked to bring them both along if I did hit one of my 9-12 outs.

[vqc]

reraise the flop on the first hand to 90 if you are going to play. If not check fold it down. Aggro or nothing.

What the hell are doing with Q4s? Fold it preflop.
Push the flop.

I had raised 5X BB preflop and now just raise 3X BB on the flop? Seems weak to me - I don't see how he would fold and I'm not going to fire out again after he just calls. I think I shoulda checked the turn for one more free card and then made a decision on the river depending on his bet.

Q4 suited - I am now very chip deficient but still at a point where I can catch a hand and get back in it. Q4 suited is a hand to do this. Push the flop? Because I did over bet you are right. But... I actually should have just checked to bring them both along if I did hit one of my 9-12 outs.

Dont count bet sizes in terms of BB after the flop. Youre reraise is done in relation to what he bet out. That min bet was either 1) A trapping bet with a set 2) a Sign of weaknes. You reraise him for information. He calls in which case I put him on a weak hand. He reraises you which he should do if he has a big hand. He folds. Becuase in reality he never really had anything.

No Q4s is still horrible. Your drawing to TPNK, or the 3rd nut flush. You have no straight possibilites.
You push the flop becuase you were wiling to go all in anyways. Pushing creates folding equity and allows you to take down the pot wihtout showing down. You push the flop becuase you really only have 9 outs anyways, and what the hell are u going to do if he just calls and the turn is trash? Your at the point where you might as well just go all in now.

[gabe]

reraise the flop on the first hand to 90 if you are going to play. If not check fold it down. Aggro or nothing.

What the hell are doing with Q4s? Fold it preflop.
Push the flop.

I had raised 5X BB preflop and now just raise 3X BB on the flop? Seems weak to me - I don't see how he would fold and I'm not going to fire out again after he just calls.

a raise is no where near as weak as the call. also, the guy min bet, which hardly represents a strong hand. i see people fold these all the time.

when you are short stacked there, you are in push-or-fold mode. save all the chips you can and push with the next decent hand you get. if you insist on playing it, you should have pushed the flop. you are betting almost 1/2 of your stack which leaves you pot comitted, and since you are not a favorite to win the hand against top pair, you want them to fold, so push.

[gabe]

reraise the flop on the first hand to 90 if you are going to play. If not check fold it down. Aggro or nothing.

What the hell are doing with Q4s? Fold it preflop.
Push the flop.

I had raised 5X BB preflop and now just raise 3X BB on the flop? Seems weak to me - I don't see how he would fold and I'm not going to fire out again after he just calls. I think I shoulda checked the turn for one more free card and then made a decision on the river depending on his bet.

Q4 suited - I am now very chip deficient but still at a point where I can catch a hand and get back in it. Q4 suited is a hand to do this. Push the flop? Because I did over bet you are right. But... I actually should have just checked to bring them both along if I did hit one of my 9-12 outs.

Dont count bet sizes in terms of BB after the flop. Youre reraise is done in relation to what he bet out. That min bet was either 1) A trapping bet with a set 2) a Sign of weaknes. You reraise him for information. He calls in which case I put him on a weak hand. He reraises you which he should do if he has a big hand. He folds. Becuase in reality he never really had anything.

No Q4s is still horrible. Your drawing to TPNK, or the 3rd nut flush. You have no straight possibilites.
You push the flop becuase you were wiling to go all in anyways. Pushing creates folding equity and allows you to take down the pot wihtout showing down. You push the flop becuase you really only have 9 outs anyways, and what the hell are u going to do if he just calls and the turn is trash? Your at the point where you might as well just go all in now.

i would have just quoted this post for truth if i saw it before i posted

[vqc]

reraise the flop on the first hand to 90 if you are going to play. If not check fold it down. Aggro or nothing.

What the hell are doing with Q4s? Fold it preflop.
Push the flop.

I had raised 5X BB preflop and now just raise 3X BB on the flop? Seems weak to me - I don't see how he would fold and I'm not going to fire out again after he just calls. I think I shoulda checked the turn for one more free card and then made a decision on the river depending on his bet.

Q4 suited - I am now very chip deficient but still at a point where I can catch a hand and get back in it. Q4 suited is a hand to do this. Push the flop? Because I did over bet you are right. But... I actually should have just checked to bring them both along if I did hit one of my 9-12 outs.

Dont count bet sizes in terms of BB after the flop. Youre reraise is done in relation to what he bet out. That min bet was either 1) A trapping bet with a set 2) a Sign of weaknes. You reraise him for information. He calls in which case I put him on a weak hand. He reraises you which he should do if he has a big hand. He folds. Becuase in reality he never really had anything.

No Q4s is still horrible. Your drawing to TPNK, or the 3rd nut flush. You have no straight possibilites.
You push the flop becuase you were wiling to go all in anyways. Pushing creates folding equity and allows you to take down the pot wihtout showing down. You push the flop becuase you really only have 9 outs anyways, and what the hell are u going to do if he just calls and the turn is trash? Your at the point where you might as well just go all in now.

i would have just quoted this post for truth if i saw it before i posted

thnx gabezor, maybe i should just move up to the 100s myself.

[chardrian]

Dont count bet sizes in terms of BB after the flop. Youre reraise is done in relation to what he bet out. That min bet was either 1) A trapping bet with a set 2) a Sign of weaknes. You reraise him for information. He calls in which case I put him on a weak hand. He reraises you which he should do if he has a big hand. He folds. Becuase in reality he never really had anything.

No Q4s is still horrible. Your drawing to TPNK, or the 3rd nut flush. You have no straight possibilites.
You push the flop becuase you were wiling to go all in anyways. Pushing creates folding equity and allows you to take down the pot wihtout showing down. You push the flop becuase you really only have 9 outs anyways, and what the hell are u going to do if he just calls and the turn is trash? Your at the point where you might as well just go all in now.

1) I agree that it was a poorly bet trapping hand or a weak hand, I'm not sure if a reraise to 90 accomplishes anything tho. You say if he calls he is weak. I say if he calls we are exactly in the same position as we were at the flop. He is either weak or he is continuing to trap. Because I bet 155 to start a raise to 90 means nothing, it gets me no more info. I'm thinking another raise to around 150 was the move to make.

2) I'm beginning to think that most people at the 100 SNGs play tight is right to start, so I might change gears and start loosening up a bit to start. I agree Q4 sucks ten handed. But people here fold early so unless I'm up against AQ or QK my Q is probably good if it hits So top pair NK generally wins and a flush well I'll take my chances. Like I said - I agree that since I bet I shoulda just pushed, but I disagree that it's such a horrible hand in this situation.

[gabe]

1) yea, the raise should be more than 90
2) play loose agressive against tight people, not just loose