Early SnG holding hi PP - how much to raise?

[Theeggman]

I don't think I've seen anything posted here specifically addressing this issue. I play $5 SnGs and when I'm dealt a very strong hand (AA or KK)with the blinds being 10/20 (stacks at 1k or 1.5k) I disregard the size of the blinds and make my PFR relative to the stack sizes.

For instance, I'll raise 200-400 and hope for a caller. Usually I'll either take the blinds or get a single caller to make the hand actually worth something. I figure to raise 4-5xBB is going to risk making the pot too multiway for my vulnerable hand to be worth anything. My theory is that the value of hi PPs early in a SnG is very low b/c the blinds are not worth much. It seems to have worked for me so far because I'll get a caller about 1/3-1/2 the time. Hopefully this hasn't been covered already, but I am interested in hearing the pros and cons.

[drmcboy]

yeah anything under 6x you may get no callers, may get 18. If I'm in EP I'll usually go 5x to open, adding 1x per limp. LP I may bring down to 4x.

Your strat is also reasonable, tho, and may maximize value, because you figure you're only getting called by another high PP or AK and can play after the flop accordingly.

Just saw the $5 piece - even more reason to make an uber raise, lots of folks may move over the top with a medium PP or call with their KJ-AQ and go broke if they hit a pair.

At higher $$ levels I think anything over 6 or 7x top open a pot is a mistake because you won't get action unless someone else has JJish or better.

It's a good problem to have, but high PP when the blinds aren't worth anything is always tough.

[vqc]

I keep everything in relation to the blinds and the limpers.

Betting is as follows with any raise that you make, with any hand that you play.

3xBB+2xLimpers

Lets say the blinds are 10/20. There are 4 Limpers before you.

60 + 2 X 80 = 220.

If you are in EP, Harrington suggests you paying attention to what sort of raise is getting called at ur table. If 3xBB bets are getting respect than thats all you need. If you have ur AA in early position, You dont need to bet anymore than 3xBB.

Im playing an SNG right now where my 3xBB bets are getting respect So thats all I needed to bet with my QQ.

Im not real sure if hi pocket pairs lose value. They cant lose value, although they may get more valuable as the tourney goes on. They are made hands, and you need to play them strongly. They will pick up more than their share of chips.

Ah yes, dont forget u can vary the 3xBB as well.

[bair]

i never make my raises in relation to the blinds in low levels, people will call w/ anything

[gabe]

(4 + number of limpers) times the blind

[vqc]

im not sure how the calculation works, except that the main goal is to make a pot sized raise. Whatever works.

[RHCNNN]

I think that raising 200-400 chips if blinds are 10-20 is a waste of a good hand. Don't play your pocket pairs scared. Just be able to lay them down if you think you are beat.
Say you have pocket kings, and you raise 200-400, now the only people who should be playing with you are gonna have premium hands too. If noone has one, then you will collect 30 chips from the blinds or maybe alittle bit more from limpers too. If someone does call, you may very well double up if they have queens or jacks, or you might lose if they have AK and hit an ace, or have Pocket aces. And if you lose it will be a huge pot.
You want people to play pots with you when you have aces... just be aware of the type of people youre playing against, and realize that when there a jack comes on the flop AND on the turn, and the fish goes all in he probably really does have trip jacks. Most of the time tho, a fish will hit top pair with a medium kicker like qj and flops a queen. And if you have your Kings or aces you will get paid off big time.
I think raising so much preflop with those hands is trying to avoid playing because you're worried about bad beats.... don't be scared of bad beats, just be sensible and don't let EVERYONE in on the flop and you'll be fine in the long run.
Also I think that raising SO much preflop is basically announcing your hand, and if anyone has half a brain they won't call/without a premium hand of their own.

[Shark Bait]

Early on, I do one of two things. If I'm early position, I'll min raise or limp, desparately hoping for a raiser. If no one raises, I'm usually screwed. If someone raises, I push. Then everyone folds or sometimes someone calls and I double up.

Late position with a lot of limpers or a raise, I push. Usually everyone folds, but that's good enough for me. Problems come when it's folded to you or there's only a limper or 2. Then I resort to the regular raise. Not 3x, because early on this is nothing. I bet minimum 5x and usually no one calls, and if anyone wants a piece, they raise, then it's pushing time again.

[Alibi]

The problem with raising so huge is that the next round when you get 66 in ep and you only limp everyone knows you're not holding kings.

[Theeggman]

Say you have pocket kings, and you raise 200-400, now the only people who should be playing with you are gonna have premium hands too.

Should being the operative word here. I find that if I make it 80-100 to go players at this level might feel it would be fun to crack AA with their 86s. If they lose they'll only be out 1/15th of their stack, but if they hit, they have a good likelihood of getting the overpair to bust out.

I think raising so much preflop with those hands is trying to avoid playing because you're worried about bad beats.... don't be scared of bad beats, just be sensible and don't let EVERYONE in on the flop and you'll be fine in the long run.

Very nice. Along with the point about announcing my hand.

My thinking is that early (when blinds are micro) in a small buyin SnG, people do stupid things. I may appear to be one of those people by making such a rediculous PFR. Hopefully I get someone with a pretty strong hand to come along. I definitely like the point that I'm playing scared. I think this hits it on the head. We've all had our kings and aces cracked, and half of me loves looking down to find KK or AA and the other half dreads it because I have the hardest time laying them down if I'm beat. I'll work on my post-flop game some more and hopefully work out these bugs.

Thanks everyone for the replies. I appreciate the formulas using (x) as a factor for the number of limpers before me. In EP, that's a different matter. I'll just limp j/k.

[gabe]

its hard to decide on protect your hands preflop vs raising for value.

[Sed]

Early position, 5-10xBB (depends on the table dynamic) with an occasional limp thrown in there if I have a crazy aggressive table.

Mid to late, the larger of what I would bet in early position and the pot...

- sed

[Rorgg]

I've been playing on UB, and I find the "Bet Pot" button hits a good spot. That'd be: BB x (3.5 + limpers)

[Shark Bait]

then of course, just now first hand I have KK on the button and I have a lot of limpers and min raisers before me, so I push and AKo calls me. Guess what happened!!!

[mike4066]

Guess what happened!!!

You had him Dominated and you got your money in when you had a HUGE lead. Thats what happened

SnG's I raise hefty in the first 1-2 blind levels, its a bit of an over bet but when your playing with a deep stacks compared to the blinds the payoff is huge. Even if you have to dump the hand you still have way more than enough chips to win the SnG.

BTW All-in First few blind levels iwth AK=bad idea

[ZenOffsuit]

early on in any tourney, I will raise 6-7x the BB. There is usually some guy with A/Q or A/x suited that thinks you are protecting a medium or small pair and he is so excited to call because when he hits on the flop you will be in big trouble!!

[Shark Bait]

Guess what happened!!!

BTW All-in First few blind levels iwth AK=bad idea

Try telling that to the guy that called me. He said, "the best hand won."

[vqc]

Guess what happened!!!

BTW All-in First few blind levels iwth AK=bad idea

Try telling that to the guy that called me. He said, "the best hand won."

Dont tap the fish tank. I like guys like him.