Big hands early in MTT...

[Chicago_Kid]

Ran into a situation twice last night that crippled or ended my MTT life in a tough way, and I wanted some feedback on them. Both situations were in MTT's of 1000 people or more, and I usually play pretty carefully early on.

In one situation I had JJ, and another I had AKs. I raised both 4-5x blinds from MP, and in each situation got one caller on the button.

In the JJ hand, I flopped JQ6, all spades. The button opponent was about 70% of my stack, as I had started out well and stood as the chip leader at the time. I bet about 60-70% of the pot to encourage a loose call if he had a spade, or just fold it he didn't. Instead, he went ALL IN for probably 1.5-2x the pot size (70% of my stack). In this situation, I figured this was an autocall. I called and he had AT and his Ace was a spade. He hit the spade on the river to cripple me. I went from chip leader to chip-whore, and got knocked out 30 mins later.

In the AKs hand, a very similar situation came about, but this time the flop came K-x-x, with two spades. My K was a spade, and my opponent had just a few more chips and I. I placed a pot-sized bet to take it down, and the button opponent moved all-in, for 2x the pot. For some reason my read told me that I was ahead or splitting, and that he was most likely on AK or KQ--or that he was on a huge semi-bluff. With trips, MOST people smooth call or reraise to get more money in later, so I put trips at about 10% likelihood. I called, and he turned QTs and hit a spade on the turn to knock me out.

Now, I have done this semi-bluff play before in tourneys, as it's a great way to take down a pot, and alternatively take someones entire stack if you hit. But I'd like some feedback from both my perspective as well as the opponent.
1) Would you call neither, one, of both of these in my situation?
2) How often would you push AI early in a MTT in my opponents' situations?

Thanks,
CK

Just wanted to see if anyone would have laid these down (mostly the second one) this early on.

[Aquinas]

In the plays u listed I loose my stack every time. Don't be afraid to bust! U are a huge favourite in both cases and they got lucky. If u arent willing to take 70% to double up I don't think u can win...but then this was assuming u knew u were ahead which u said u did...or to put it another way: say u knew ur opponent went all in with 27o and u held ak...would u call? I know I would.
(don't trust me too much--though I've had my share of final table showings, I often bust fairly early on these sort of plays)

To answer the second question...I wouldnt call ur pf raises with the hands u listed for ur opponents...

[ZenOffsuit]

I agree with both plays. you were ahead, knew you were ahead and put the pressure on in both situations. Sadly, the chasing bastards won the day.

Early on, I would not raise that much w/ Js or A/K. I would be more likely to limp w/ Js or bump A/K by 2.5x BB to take some control of the hand preflop but not invest alot of chips. Not that it is relevent to the outcomes here, but that is just my personal approach with these hands early on.

[drmcboy]

I would have called both for same reasons you detail, with the over bet you just assume a draw. If you're beat, you're beat.

I sorta like the guy's play with the A10. This is one of those weird spots where you almost want to tell the guy your hand Phil Helmuth style just so he doesn't draw you out - Dude, it's not top pair, it's a set! But... if you have AQ/AJ his A is no good. I might make this play if a had a tight read.

Q10, way too big of a move, especially since he doesn't know you don't have the better draw with a Kx of spades or something. I would not make this play.

[Chicago_Kid]

I agree with both plays. you were ahead, knew you were ahead and put the pressure on in both situations. Sadly, the chasing bastards won the day.

Early on, I would not raise that much w/ Js or A/K. I would be more likely to limp w/ Js or bump A/K by 2.5x BB to take some control of the hand preflop but not invest alot of chips. Not that it is relevent to the outcomes here, but that is just my personal approach with these hands early on.

On the raising amounts, I've been burned the other way in letting small pairs and suited connectors into the party with 2-3x BB raises, so perhaps this is why I've been raising more lately. Alas, you can't have it both ways, so mixing it up is all I can do on raise amounts, I guess...

As far as limping JJ, I cannot really agree with this, as too often small pairs, KQ, Ax or other broadway limp in as well, and have position on me if broadway hits. But, this is just MO here...

[gabe]

i would play it just like you. you got unlucky, but played well.

[chardrian]

In big tourney's you are going to need to double a buttload of times to make the final table, so you can't let chip earning opportunities go to waste. So I would say the exact opposite of zen - you want to make bigger raises early with these very good (but not spectacular) hands. In those early rounds a 3X BB raise often means the whole table will call. Save that standard raise for later rounds when it actually will take down the blinds and/or drastically thin out your opposing players.

4-5xBB is perfect early on. You played the hands perfectly, setting yourself up to become a big stack and progressively move your way up - it didn't happen this time, but play enough and it will.

[ZenOffsuit]

In big tourney's you are going to need to double a buttload of times to make the final table, so you can't let chip earning opportunities go to waste. So I would say the exact opposite of zen - you want to make bigger raises early with these very good (but not spectacular) hands. In those early rounds a 3X BB raise often means the whole table will call. Save that standard raise for later rounds when it actually will take down the blinds and/or drastically thin out your opposing players.

4-5xBB is perfect early on. You played the hands perfectly, setting yourself up to become a big stack and progressively move your way up - it didn't happen this time, but play enough and it will.

IMO...These hands are a damned if you do, damned if you don't regarding the level of the raise. Early on, a SnG or MTT are full of fish and you have no real reads. These people don't know how to respect ANY raise when it is this early.

I have raised these hands 4-5bb and many times, had 3-4 callers. Flop misses your A/K or has overcards to your Js....Are you going to make a continuation bet?? Do you think they have a clue what a continuation bet is? That is what concerns me so I like to minimize my investment in these hands early on. If the flop hits, then I can really draw out some cash. If I am in late position and it folds around to me then I like a bigger raise.

[chardrian]

Flop hits with 3-4 callers and a 4-5xBB raise u r now really kicking ass. The fish can't fold after "pot committing" themselves. Flop doesn't hit - you fold JJ to overcards, and you gotta wing it with AK.

[Chicago_Kid]

In big tourney's you are going to need to double a buttload of times to make the final table, so you can't let chip earning opportunities go to waste. So I would say the exact opposite of zen - you want to make bigger raises early with these very good (but not spectacular) hands. In those early rounds a 3X BB raise often means the whole table will call. Save that standard raise for later rounds when it actually will take down the blinds and/or drastically thin out your opposing players.

4-5xBB is perfect early on. You played the hands perfectly, setting yourself up to become a big stack and progressively move your way up - it didn't happen this time, but play enough and it will.

IMO...These hands are a damned if you do, damned if you don't regarding the level of the raise. Early on, a SnG or MTT are full of fish and you have no real reads. These people don't know how to respect ANY raise when it is this early.

I have raised these hands 4-5bb and many times, had 3-4 callers. Flop misses your A/K or has overcards to your Js....Are you going to make a continuation bet?? Do you think they have a clue what a continuation bet is? That is what concerns me so I like to minimize my investment in these hands early on. If the flop hits, then I can really draw out some cash. If I am in late position and it folds around to me then I like a bigger raise.

I understand your dilemma. I guess I accept the fact that investing more to isolate someone who might end up with a 2nd best hand is better than limping and trying to navigate against 3-4 other players who could beat you 5 different ways. I tend to play better this way, anyway.

Furthermore, can I ask what hands you would invest your chips in in these situations?

BTW--I'm not trying to defend my play here. I know many others have different styles that work for them and that some, for example, are very comfortable limping and playing a crafty postflop game. This isn't me, however.