Opinions?

[ilikeaces86]

***** Hand History for Game 2298682160 *****
NL Hold'em $100 Buy-in + $9 Entry Fee Trny:13593377 Level:6 Blinds(100/200) - Saturday, July 02, 16:24:37 EDT 2005
Table Table 35332 (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 10: prohor7 ( $2765 )
Seat 1: jimnova ( $4560 )
Seat 2: tat2joey ( $1600 )
Seat 7: Extratopping ( $1075 )
Trny:13593377 Level:6
Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Extratopping [ 9c 5c ]
prohor7 folds.
jimnova raises [400].
tat2joey folds.
Extratopping calls [200].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Jc, Jd, 3d ]
Extratopping is all-In [675]
jimnova folds.
Extratopping does not show cards.
Extratopping wins 1575 chips

[gabe]

i don't do it without a read.

[stewartkev]

You are a maniac...but better than me and it worked!

That's a very read-heavy move. What are your reasons behind making this play, ie what was your read on this guy?

[vqc]

uhh STOP AND GO anyone?

No fold equity preflop, first to act on the flop, push. Std. Stop and go. Very effective regardless of reads.

[Sed]

without a pocket pair or a J the guy is folding almost every time.... nice play.

[gabe]

Very effective regardless of reads.

why do you say this?

[vqc]

I think the point of the stop and GO is to create fold Equity when there was non before.
Granted if a person ONLY min raises when he has a monster, then this is an obviously bad play, becuase you are going to run into a monster.

This is why the Stop and Go works
After seeing 3 cards come out, unless your opponent has caught the flop (the oft quoted % that I have seen is that the chances of both of you catching hte flop is only 30%), or was holding monster pair to beign with, your fold equity has increased dramatically. Anyone with 2 overs taht would call your all in preflop might not call post flop after seeing 3 cards.

I am struggling to come up for a reason why reads dont matter. OR at the very least dont make as much a difference as they woudl in other plays. Granted reads always help in a play, but to wat extent they apply in the stop and go, I dont realyl know.

In the back of my mind becuase they work based on the simple fact that people either catch cards or dont (and sometimes even when they do), becuase they are afraid of the all in post lfop instead of preflop, becuase they have extra time to make a misclick, or overthink the situation and fold out, becuase of all these factors that help you pick up the pot, a read does not matter as much.

Why is this play read based Gabezor?

[gabe]

my read doesn't have to be that the person isn't min raising with a monster, but i don't want them making a bad call and having me highcarded.

[vqc]

on a JJ5 Flop, if you push, how many people out of 100 will know that you are Stop and going and call you with a KT? How many more would fold that KT?

[gabe]

a fish might call with AX. fish love to stop bluffers. or a fish might call with an ace of diamonds.

[vqc]

Would this play therefore be less and less dependant on reads when there are less and less fish at ur table?

[Bmxicle]

Min raises on PP sngs don't mean a monster the majority of the time. I like the flop play, what i don't like is comitting 1/4th of your stack pre-flop with 95s.

[vqc]

if aces folds this hand he has at 4xBB, after he posts the SB he will be at 3.5xBB, and that = no fold equity. When you have no fold equity the only thing you can depend on to win you hands is if you pick up a monster.

The stop and go is essentially a situation where you want to go all in preflop but you cant so you do so on the flop instead. The play is inherently designed so that in many situations you commit a big part of ur stack into the pot preflop. However, at all times you have the intention of going all in anyways.

[megadeath]

i've seen this play alot at the 50/100/200 SNG level, its really a great play to utilize, but when people use it against me you really have to think. OK, first of all, if he had a Jack he would check/call obviously, not go all in-first.. he would try to draw a bluff by the other guy. If he had ANY pocket pair i think it's safe to say that with his stack and those blinds he would have pushed preflop. (I'm thinking from the perspective of the mini-raiser)
So what hands could he have? Basically A3 or a bluff. With 800 in the pot after Ace's call, and another all in for 675.. That makes it what? call 675 to win the 2150 in the pot. I make this call at the higher levels with AX, KX, QX. The guy must have been pretty retarded to fold there. And whoever said a fish might call with ace high? what a stupid thing to say.. tell me why it's not profitable to call this against a desperate short stack?
If the guy thought it thru you were done, unless he tried to steal a shortstacks blind with small suited connectors.

Good Play on your part but dont be surprised if you get called by Q2.

[Bmxicle]

if aces folds this hand he has at 4xBB, after he posts the SB he will be at 3.5xBB, and that = no fold equity. When you have no fold equity the only thing you can depend on to win you hands is if you pick up a monster.

The stop and go is essentially a situation where you want to go all in preflop but you cant so you do so on the flop instead. The play is inherently designed so that in many situations you commit a big part of ur stack into the pot preflop. However, at all times you have the intention of going all in anyways.

3.5X bb has folding equity, my standard raise in most tourneys is 3xbb for blinds steals, and in party poker sngs when i have a big stack it is 2.5Xbb. I agree that he has to make a move, but i'm just not sure that this is the place to do it.

[vqc]

i've seen this play alot at the 50/100/200 SNG level, its really a great play to utilize, but when people use it against me you really have to think. OK, first of all, if he had a Jack he would check/call obviously, not go all in-first.. he would try to draw a bluff by the other guy. If he had ANY pocket pair i think it's safe to say that with his stack and those blinds he would have pushed preflop. (I'm thinking from the perspective of the mini-raiser)
So what hands could he have? Basically A3 or a bluff. With 800 in the pot after Ace's call, and another all in for 675.. That makes it what? call 675 to win the 2150 in the pot. I make this call at the higher levels with AX, KX, QX. The guy must have been pretty retarded to fold there. And whoever said a fish might call with ace high? what a stupid thing to say.. tell me why it's not profitable to call this against a desperate short stack?
If the guy thought it thru you were done, unless he tried to steal a shortstacks blind with small suited connectors.

Good Play on your part but dont be surprised if you get called by Q2.

If aces had pushed preflop, woudl you have caleld with Q2?

[megadeath]

No i wouldn't have called with Q2 preflop if aces pushed. But i'd have called with Q2 on the flop when he pushed into me. If he had a stronger ace or Good King i felt he would have pushed preflop to try to get a little fold equity, as he could not afford to miss the flop. When he pushed INTO me i would 100% know he didnt have a jack. 90% chance its a bluff, and the other 10% more power to my opponent. I'm saying for sake of argument if you somehow mini raised Q2 and the BB called and pushed into you with that stack, hell yes im calling. Were talking about 100+ SNG's where people have thought processes (or should)

[vqc]

Would you have min raised with Q2, and then called Aces' all in preflop?
If not, why would you call his all in on a JJ3 flop, even with a thought process, why would you waste ur chips on a botched steal attempt?

For the sake of argument, I am saying that you would fold ur Q2o on the flop after ur steal attempt preflop, if you did not hit ur Q on the flop.

The play works for a reason. Becuase people, even those with thought processes, fold.

[megadeath]

Would you have min raised with Q2, and then called Aces' all in preflop?
If not, why would you call his all in on a JJ3 flop, even with a thought process, why would you waste ur chips on a botched steal attempt?

For the sake of argument, I am saying that you would fold ur Q2o on the flop after ur steal attempt preflop, if you did not hit ur Q on the flop.

The play works for a reason. Becuase people, even those with thought processes, fold.

blahh.. ok how did this start?

First of all from the button i would have raised it between 600-875 so Aces either has to go all in preflop or fold. that is if i was going to play that crappy Q2 hand. Where in a real SNG i would have folded there, i like to steal in earlier position then on the button.

Let's say i have Q9 or Q10 and for some reason i mini raise his blind. And he calls and it comes JJ3. To me (against a short stack in his blind which has the odds to call with any 2 cards to see the flop) Anyways, to me that is a great flop for Q9 or Q10 (if by some miracle like i said i miniraised)

AX or PP probably would have pushed back preflop. JX would not have led the flop. KX possibly but i doubt it. And Yes i would call that all in with Q2. I would 80% expect my opponent to flip over random cards 87o or something, and the other 15% some 3x and the last 5% some random hand that has me owned. If i think my opponent is full of crap im not afraid to call him on it. Mind you, if i was in Aces position id have played that hand the exact same, but i would call the guy a fish for calling with QX KX AX, id have thought it was a good call.


When i go for a steal with KX QX and i get called and i dont hit my flop. I don't roll over and die, especially with a short stack that just as likely missed.

If they somehow got into this predicament with QX (lets forget the preflop, and just concentrate on from the flop forward with position and stack sizes taken into account)

You say "those with thought processes would fold"

Why would they fold? People with thought processes would say, Hey this guy pretty good to make it this far, he needs chips. gee,, hmm.. let me think.. duh i know, Any PP = Push.. AX = Push.. K Good kicker = Push.. all these are pushed PREFLOP.. JX = wouldn't led out

the only 3hands he could flip over are KX (not likely as he would have probably pushed preflop) 3X (not likely but possible) or a hand that Aces have.

People with thought processes would NOT fold. At least at this level.. Anyways forget about the QX, all i said is my thoughts on this hand like he asked, and I gave a reason for why i think it's so.

[elanto]

I sort of agree with megadeath, if you just thought about why your opponent pushed on that flop either you conclude that hes bluffing (reasons megadeath gave earlier) or that he wants you to think that hes bluffing and he actually has Jx. The second option isnt very probable...I have to admit if im holding KT, KQ, or AT I would fold this, I would give him credit for the three...

all in all congratulations aces for the great play


-anto