What's your play?

[chardrian]

Showing 4 hands just so you can get a feel of what you would do on the final hand. Hand 1 we had 13 players left in the tourney, Hand 4 there were just 11.

Hand 1 - Do u push here or just call? I'm glad I did what I did cuz I don't think this guy was folding, but...?
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Game #899282449 - Tournament $20,000 R&A - 6,000/12,000 No Limit Texas Hold'em -
2005/07/17-16:27:45.6 (CST)
Table "$20,000 R&A 6" (MTT) -- Seat 7 is the button
Seat 1: endofield (84,736 in chips)
Seat 3: chardrian (172,760 in chips)
Seat 4: riverwalker (82,263 in chips)
Seat 5: LittlePrat (358,873 in chips)
Seat 6: pantherpok (60,167 in chips)
Seat 7: mammia (48,444 in chips)
Seat 8: maddog963 (45,268 in chips)
chardrian: Ante (600)
riverwalker: Ante (600)
LittlePrat: Ante (600)
pantherpok: Ante (600)
mammia : Ante (600)
maddog963: Ante (600)
endofield: Ante (600)
maddog963: Post Small Blind (6,000)
endofield: Post Big Blind (12,000)
Dealing...
Dealt to chardrian [ Jh ]
Dealt to chardrian [ Ac ]
chardrian: Raise (40,000)
riverwalker: Fold
LittlePrat: Fold
pantherpok: Fold
mammia : Raise All-in (47,844)
maddog963: Fold
endofield: Call (35,844)
chardrian: Call (7,844)
*** FLOP *** : [ 4d 6d 9d ]
endofield: Bet (36,292)
chardrian: Fold
chardrian said, "let's see em"
*** TURN *** : [ 4d 6d 9d ] [ 5d ]
chardrian said, "phew"
*** RIVER *** : [ 4d 6d 9d 5d ] [ 7h ]
chardrian said, "damn I'm good"
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: 153,732 | Board: [ 4d 6d 9d 5d 7h ]
endofield bet 84,736, collected 190,024, net +105,288 (showed hand) [ 6h Ad ]
(a flush, ace high)
chardrian lost 48,444 (folded) [ Jh Ac ] (high card ace)
riverwalker lost 600 (folded)
LittlePrat lost 600 (folded)
pantherpok lost 600 (folded)
mammia lost 48,444 (showed hand) [ 2h 2d ] (a flush, nine high)
maddog963 lost 6,600 (folded)
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Game #899285532 - Tournament $20,000 R&A - 6,000/12,000 No Limit Texas Hold'em -
2005/07/17-16:30:15.6 (CST)
Table "$20,000 R&A 6" (MTT) -- Seat 8 is the button
Seat 1: endofield (190,024 in chips)
Seat 3: chardrian (124,316 in chips)
Seat 4: riverwalker (81,663 in chips)
Seat 5: LittlePrat (358,273 in chips)
Seat 6: pantherpok (59,567 in chips)
Seat 8: maddog963 (38,668 in chips)
chardrian: Ante (600)
riverwalker: Ante (600)
LittlePrat: Ante (600)
pantherpok: Ante (600)
maddog963: Ante (600)
endofield: Ante (600)
endofield: Post Small Blind (6,000)
chardrian: Post Big Blind (12,000)
Dealing...
Dealt to chardrian [ Td ]
Dealt to chardrian [ Kc ]
chardrian said, "careful tho endo"
riverwalker: Raise (26,000)
LittlePrat: Fold
chardrian said, "had u dominated preflop"
pantherpok: Fold
maddog963: Fold
endofield: Raise (57,500)
chardrian: Fold
riverwalker: Call (37,500)
*** FLOP *** : [ Ac As Qc ]
endofield: Bet (19,000)
riverwalker: Fold
endofield: Winner -- doesn't show cards
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: 142,600 | Board: [ Ac As Qc ]
endofield bet 83,100, collected 161,600, net +78,500
chardrian lost 12,600 (folded) [ Td Kc ] (a pair of aces)
riverwalker lost 64,100 (folded)
LittlePrat lost 600 (folded)
pantherpok lost 600 (folded)
maddog963 lost 600 (folded)
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Game #899287118 - Tournament $20,000 R&A - 6,000/12,000 No Limit Texas Hold'em -
2005/07/17-16:31:33.5 (CST)
Table "$20,000 R&A 6" (MTT) -- Seat 1 is the button
Seat 1: endofield (268,524 in chips)
Seat 3: chardrian (111,716 in chips)
Seat 4: riverwalker (17,563 in chips)
Seat 5: LittlePrat (357,673 in chips)
Seat 6: pantherpok (58,967 in chips)
Seat 8: maddog963 (38,068 in chips)
chardrian: Ante (600)
riverwalker: Ante (600)
LittlePrat: Ante (600)
pantherpok: Ante (600)
maddog963: Ante (600)
endofield: Ante (600)
chardrian: Post Small Blind (6,000)
riverwalker: Post Big Blind (12,000)
Dealt to chardrian [ 7c ]
Dealt to chardrian [ Js ]
LittlePrat: Raise (30,000)
pantherpok: Fold
maddog963: Fold
endofield: Fold
chardrian: Fold
riverwalker: Call All-in (4,963)
*** FLOP *** : [ 8s 2c 5s ]
*** TURN *** : [ 8s 2c 5s ] [ Ah ]
*** RIVER *** : [ 8s 2c 5s Ah ] [ 4h ]
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: 43,526 | Board: [ 8s 2c 5s Ah 4h ]
endofield lost 600 (folded)
chardrian lost 6,600 (folded) [ 7c Js ] (high card ace)
riverwalker bet 17,563, collected 43,526, net +25,963 (showed hand) [ 7s 7d ]
(a pair of sevens)
LittlePrat bet 30,600, collected 13,037, net -17,563 (showed hand) [ Jh Kd ]
(high card ace)
pantherpok lost 600 (folded)
maddog963 lost 600 (folded)
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Hand 4 - What's your play? - same guy who just caught his A6os bets into me. - I'm probably 6th out of 11. 11th gets $290, 10th $380, 9th $535, 8th $915 and 7th $1375. I can probably camp on my chips and slide into 7th if I wanted to. And yes $1,000 is a big deal to me. But $7,600 is even bigger (that's the winner's take).
Game #899288256 - Tournament $20,000 R&A - 6,000/12,000 No Limit Texas Hold'em -
2005/07/17-16:32:30.0 (CST)
Table "$20,000 R&A 6" (MTT) -- Seat 3 is the button
Seat 1: endofield (267,924 in chips)
Seat 3: chardrian (105,116 in chips)
Seat 4: riverwalker (43,526 in chips)
Seat 5: LittlePrat (340,110 in chips)
Seat 6: pantherpok (58,367 in chips)
Seat 8: maddog963 (37,468 in chips)
chardrian: Ante (600)
riverwalker: Ante (600)
LittlePrat: Ante (600)
pantherpok: Ante (600)
maddog963: Ante (600)
endofield: Ante (600)
riverwalker: Post Small Blind (6,000)
LittlePrat: Post Big Blind (12,000)
Dealing...
Dealt to chardrian [ Jh ]
Dealt to chardrian [ Js ]
pantherpok: Fold
maddog963: Fold
endofield: Raise (30,000)

chardrian??

[fjuanl]

Hand 1 - Why didnt you just do a standard 3xbb raise? Your situation gets a lot worse when endofield calls the reraise. He has half his chips in this hand, but you can't fold obviously, its only 7,800 more into a pot close to 150,000. You caught nothing on the flop, and this guy isnt giving up, so you made the right play.

Hand 4 - Could be a steal, hes in CO (I think) and its folded to him. I would reraise to 70,000 or 80,000. If he calls I might push the flop if theres no cards over jack.

Just some advice about the $ situation :

You sound like you really are affected by the payouts. I'm also like this, and it can really cause you to play scared poker. You can really start seeing a lot of big payouts if you don't ever look at them! Just focus all of your thoughts on playing good solid poker, developing your reads and making smart decisions. This will pay off big time at the final tables because everyone else is playing scared poker, just hoping to stay in longer to make a few extra bucks. Find out who these players are and attack; you can build a monster stack by going after the scared money.

[MNMP2]

I would say at least a call here. If you have him pegged as a player who likes any A hand, then I would raise him.

But you at least have to see a flop here.

[drmcboy]

If you'd fold if he moved in, I'd move in first . If you'd call, I'd make it 70-80k to go and go back for the rest if he moves in.

[chardrian]

1) The 40,000 raise in hand 1 is a little over 3xBB cuz I like to bet a little more than 3xBB to take care of the blinds (otherwise it makes it a little easier for BB to call).

2)Well one thing I've never been called is scared. Stupid yes, overly aggressive, yes; scared no. Maybe that's a good sign. I couldn't have gotten to 6th out of 11th without stealing blinds, being aggressive, not worrying about busting out, etc. The reason I put the payouts in is because I'm really really close to making big bucks here, so if I'm gonna think about camping now is the time to do so. The difference in payouts between 11th and 1st are huge with each step getting increasingly bigger. I consider this a nobrainer at any other point. But with $1,000 separating four places, for once maybe the payouts matter.

3) I really really don't get the reraise to 70-80,000 suggestions. What's the point of leaving myself with a 25-25,000 chips? I can see calling just to see the flop and then deciding, but... IMO if I'm gonna raise preflop here I should just push.

[drmcboy]

sorry read stack from hand 1. just push. It's JJ, six handed. if the money matters to you, fine, I don't care if you move up the pay scale, so push. We don't know what your bank account looks like.

[fjuanl]

whoops I misread that also...

its a tough situation, but I would move in. I would figure your at worst a coinflip against AK, AQ, or KQ. Theres a good chance he could have a lower pocket pair. Ax and Kx are 30% Double up here and I think you have a good chance at the top 3 where the big money is. It would be nice to see those shorstacks go before you, but I like your chances if he calls.

[Chicago_Kid]

If you are playing to win, I'd push--this guy could have a wide range of hands. If he calls with Ax or something you are in good shape. If you double up, you can then coast into top 3 or 4.

If you are playing for 1 or 2 more spots up, call and see a flop, and then push on low cards board, as already said.

[chardrian]

If it matters, which I don't think it does. It was a $30 R&A. I had gotten oofed twice in the R&A hour so I was in for $180. My bankroll is variable - I'm at $2,000 now but willing to keep playing high(er) stakes even if I lose that.

Like I said if I had been in 15th, 21st, or whatever else place here I woulda pushed without even thinking. The only reason the money matters here isn't because of my bankroll, it's because there is such a difference between each place payout now... So I have three choices: 1) push and hope that I double up and become a force at the final table, 2) call and see what the flop brings - if I call and fold I'm still around 7th so not huge damage, 3) just fold everyhand unless its AA,KK, QQ, or AK and take whatever I can get. To be honest - #3 is just not a choice for me.

[chardrian]

Here's the outcome...

chardrian: Raise (104,516)
riverwalker: Fold
LittlePrat: Fold
endofield: Call (74,516)
chardrian said, "gh" (although I'm really saying f*ck f*ck f*ck)
*** FLOP *** : [ Ac 8d 5h ]
*** TURN *** : [ Ac 8d 5h ] [ 3s ]
chardrian said, "11th grrrrrrrrrrr"
*** RIVER *** : [ Ac 8d 5h 3s ] [ 9c ]
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: 230,632 | Board: [ Ac 8d 5h 3s 9c ]
endofield bet 105,116, collected 230,632, net +125,516 (showed hand) [ Kh Kd ]
(a pair of kings)
chardrian lost 105,116 (showed hand) [ Jh Js ] (a pair of jacks)
riverwalker lost 6,600 (folded)
LittlePrat lost 12,600 (folded)
pantherpok lost 600 (folded)
maddog963 lost 600 (folded)

I don't think it was a bad play on my part. I do think maybe calling there instead of pushing had some merit. 2.5xBB raise is fishy, A mighta scared him, saved me, etc. Then again - I wanted to win and that was my chance. Just frustratingly close again. Good news was I did win a Limit tourney earlier today so at least I know I cans till win MTTs.

[koolmoe]

Hand 4) I'd push. endo left room to fold and your stack is big enough to hurt him if he's on a straight steal. If he calls, you'll be in decent to good shape most of the time.

[Chicago_Kid]

Unless that 2.5 raise REALLY seemed fishy to you at the moment, you played it fine. I would have seen this as a steal and pushed as well. Only 4-5 hands he calls there, and 3 that leave you behind. Those are the breaks...better then than in bubble-land.

[chardrian]

Although not bubble for ITM - I consider this to be bubble land. Top 40 got paid but the difference between 11th and 40th is so small who cares? I'm really focusing on final tables which is why I took this beat so bad. But... the big daddy WILL come...

[gabe]

the JJ hand is fine, don't fault your play based on results.

[chardrian]

the JJ hand is fine, don't fault your play based on results.

Again in general I agree. This was one of those rare occurrences that results do matter though. Sitting in solid 6th with only 11 players left. The stacks at the other table were three guys with over 250,000 and 2 guys with under 30,000. I had 2x the amount of chips of everyone left in spots 7-11 and would have had 1.5 x as many as spots 8-11 even if I had just called the bet preflop. The guy in third or fourth at that point made the raise on me.

Given that, plus the payour structure, plus the fact that I'm only going to be way ahead if the guy has lower pockets. I think there is a case to be made for just calling. Even if he has AQ, AK, or QK this guy might call and then I'm racing for a double up at a very inopportune time.

I'm not saying the push was bad - sucked that I lost, but I'm ok with it. I am saying the call very well could have saved me lots of dough. And that's what this game is about in the end. Then again if he had caught with Ax suited I woulda been pissed that I hadn't pushed pre-flop to get this guy out.

The only point/question I was trying to make is that in this case, chip stacks become super important, so should I have paid better attention to them before pushing (it was only after the hand and hand history that I really realized just how solid I was in 6th place before the hand).

[chardrian]

the JJ hand is fine, don't fault your play based on results.

Again in general I agree. This was one of those rare occurrences that results do matter though. Sitting in solid 6th with only 11 players left. The stacks at the other table were three guys with over 250,000 and 2 guys with under 30,000. I had 2x the amount of chips of everyone left in spots 7-11 and would have had 1.5 x as many as spots 8-11 even if I had just called the bet preflop. The guy in third or fourth at that point made the raise on me.

Given that, plus the payour structure, plus the fact that I'm only going to be way ahead if the guy has lower pockets. I think there is a case to be made for just calling. Even if he has AQ, AK, or QK this guy might call and then I'm racing for a double up at a very inopportune time.

I'm not saying the push was bad - sucked that I lost, but I'm ok with it. I am saying the call very well could have saved me lots of dough. And that's what this game is about in the end. Then again if he had caught with Ax suited I woulda been pissed that I hadn't pushed pre-flop to get this guy out.

The only point/question I was trying to make is that in this case, chip stacks become super important, so should I have paid better attention to them before pushing (it was only after the hand and hand history that I really realized just how solid I was in 6th place before the hand)?

[gabe]

you have 10bb, its 6 handed, an idiot makes a raise in front of you, and you have JJ!! this is a great place to be.

calling is bad for a couple of reasons. other people don't respect his raise, and could push over top of him (and your call) with a worse hand, which is exactly what you don't want. also, you won't have enough to play postflop poker after calling off 1/3 of your stack preflop.

[Chicago_Kid]

the JJ hand is fine, don't fault your play based on results.

Can you honestly imagine a situation where you would lay it down? You need to win with these hands to do well, and when you get them ITM you need to go for it to get the big prize.

I think Gabe speaks truth here. I would relish your solid performance here, and not focus on this hand too much. You obviously played very well; sometimes you just run into a bigger hand.

[chardrian]

Ok ok ok - I have it in my head that calling woulda saved me $1,000 (not chips, dollars) - need a little more time to just let it go... but I will. Just frustrating, cuz I keep being in position to really make some cash and then playing into a bigger stack who knocks me out. But you are (and I was) right. Had to push.

Most frustrating part was after boosting this retard into 2nd place at the final table. He finished in 6th. Maddog (who was in last at my table before this hand and 8th at the final table) just camped and came in 5th.

[aleksandr]

I'd have to disagree with alot of the players here - I think you have PLENTY of room to fold this hand and go after unconstested pots, and push with nuts or near it. You have 10xbb+antes, which is significantly more than most of the stacks at the table. Patience and a good lean can coast you into 5th or better here.

[chardrian]

Like I've said - I think there is more to this hand than just a standard my JJ got busted post.

Tons of things to consider. At this point we are at two tables, mine of 6 and the other with 5. Next player out we get combined back to the final table. So if I do fold and camp my blinds are going to be eaten away at a a quicker rate for a little while at least.

In the end, in this case, the final consideration for me should have been do I wanna win or just make top 6? Right now, I'm at a point where the $1,000 payoff would have been huge for me - probably more from a mental point than a bankroll point. But deep down, my goal in every tourney is to win it, not to place well. I still don't think it was a bad play, but looking back at it a day later, I wish I had taken more time before pushing to really assess what I was doing.

When I saw that bet, from that guy, I just pushed immediately. The vast majority of the pots were being won simply by whoever bet first at this point. Occassionally someone would then raise all-in preflop. Very, very little post-flop poker action going on. So I still think a call woulda been fine even though chip leader was in BB so he mighta called as well.

I don't see how you can fold this hand pre-flop, but I do see a call in there. But at this point, screw it - I pushed, it was fine, move on.

[k8s]

Why would you wanna coast into 5th? Play to win. JJ is a good hand, its not like you're pushing with 66 here and making a dangerous move. Any raise will pot commit you so just push preflop.