Should I have just saved money and folded on the flop?

[dsaxton]

For some reason it doesn't appear in the hand history here, but I had 6-6.

PokerStars Game #2126417124: Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2) - 2005/07/17 - 20:12:39 (ET)
Table 'Lachesis' Seat #9 is the button
Seat 3: HooBangin ($405 in chips)
Seat 4: WheelingJim ($196 in chips)
Seat 5: BURGHY1 ($70.75 in chips)
Seat 6: dsaxton ($204.65 in chips)
Seat 7: SamuraiKid ($233.15 in chips)
Seat 8: TrueOrange ($190.20 in chips)
Seat 9: coglesogle ($192.35 in chips)
HooBangin: posts small blind $1
WheelingJim: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
melikman joins the table at seat #1
BURGHY1: folds
dsaxton: calls $2
SamuraiKid: folds
TrueOrange: folds
coglesogle: folds
HooBangin: raises $4 to $6
WheelingJim: folds
dsaxton: calls $4
*** FLOP *** [6h Ah Js]
HooBangin: checks
FRiaR SKanK is connected
dsaxton: bets $7
HooBangin: raises $11 to $18
dsaxton: raises $11 to $29
HooBangin: raises $31 to $60
dsaxton: calls $31
*** TURN *** [6h Ah Js] [Jh]
HooBangin: checks
dsaxton: checks
*** RIVER *** [6h Ah Js Jh] [3d]
HooBangin: bets $339 and is all-in
dsaxton: folds
HooBangin collected $131 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $134 | Rake $3
Board [6h Ah Js Jh 3d]
Seat 3: HooBangin (small blind) collected ($131)
Seat 4: WheelingJim (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: BURGHY1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: dsaxton folded on the River
Seat 7: SamuraiKid folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: TrueOrange folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: coglesogle (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

[bair]

what are you putting him on?

[Greedo017]

if you're not calling ai on a later street when two blanks come, then yes fold the flop to his reraise.

however, i push the flop. you that sure he's got rockets?

[dsaxton]

if you're not calling ai on a later street when two blanks come, then yes fold the flop to his reraise.

however, i push the flop. you that sure he's got rockets?

Blanks? The turn basically meant I couldn't beat any of the hands he's representing on the flop. I can't beat A-A, J-J or even A-J at that point.

Why would you go all-in on the flop? He raises out of the small blind, check-raises when the flop comes A, J high, then reraises my reraise. Isn't it obvious he probably has at least J-J?

[lowBoy]

Yeah, it does sound like he's on at least JJ if not AA.

Absent of reads that tell me he'd raise to semi-buy the blind+1 preflop with an AJ from the SB, I'm ditching the hand at his $31 re-reraise.

[Greedo017]

so every time a flop comes ace high and you flop a set you back off to aggression?

[Armstrong]

The flop looks like AA,JJ,OR AJ by the way he is pot building by reraising you a minimal amount everytime. I'm sure he had AA or AJ because he tried to do the "I AM SO OVERBETTING THE POT I HAVE NOTHING" I mean... turn goes check check, then 400 dollars? FISHY

[DimitriT]

I'm a tight plr so I would have folded it preflop on the raise, but without a read on the plr (that he's loose and will overplay AK or AJ or is a persistent bluffer) I MAY fold the flop on his reraise. If I had a read on him as a rock, sure, that's a fold right there. Turn looks like he's looking for a check-raise and river looks like a sucker bet. Hard to see weakness there after he raised you $31.

[lowBoy]

so every time a flop comes ace high and you flop a set you back off to aggression?

Of course not, but the action on the flop is suspicious. You've got a deep stack who's check-raising for value and then once dsaxton bites back with a min-raise (very suspicious in and of itself), raises 3x that raise. Seems like he's betting from a very confident position.

[allLiving]

He clearly has a higher boat.

[Staple Gun]

Push the flop, but whatever you do, do not call him if you think he has a set already and you aren't gonna call an AI on the turn/river. I think hes got AJ or AK, maybe even A-6.

[dsaxton]

Push the flop, but whatever you do, do not call him if you think he has a sey already and you arn't gonna call an AI on the turn/river. I think hes got AJ or AK, maybe even A-6.

I don't think that going all-in with a set on the flop should just be an automatic play, especially when the other guy is making a play which is consistent only with a higher set.

Bear in mind that he raised out of the *small blind*. This almost always indicates a high pocket pair in a full ring game.

[Greedo017]

ok, i can agree with that. i think most everyone on this board has said that you more or less never fold a set to the threat of a higher set, unless its just super obvious, so that's basically what i was basing that on. to me it seems like he probably does have it.

[dsaxton]

I think I was calling on the flop in the remote hope that he only had A-J, but once the turn was another J, I was done with the hand. I'm not sure if I should've called the $31 or not.

[dalecooper]

That's a tough hand. My initial reaction was "push the flop!" but the more I look it over, the more I understand the laydown.

[Greedo017]

and, i called the turn and river blanks because i think if true blanks came and he pushed the river you'd have folded anyway, making the turn j effectively a blank

[Greedo017]

from the frustrating laydown thread.


Dan Harrington says it best in Harrington on Hold 'Em Volume 2:
Quote:
Trips. These are good slow-playing hands, and are much more common than the stronger hands. Some authors tell you to be careful when you flop middle or bottom trips, because you might lose to higher trips. Nonsense. If you get knocked out of the tournament because you lost in a set-over-set confrontation, then it just wasn't your tournament. When your set gets outflopped, you're supposed to lose a lot of money. When I hear someone telling a story about how he shrewdly laid down middle set after some intricate chain of reasoning convinced him he was beaten, my quick (but silent) reaction is "Idiot."

[dsaxton]

from the frustrating laydown thread.


Dan Harrington says it best in Harrington on Hold 'Em Volume 2:
Quote:
Trips. These are good slow-playing hands, and are much more common than the stronger hands. Some authors tell you to be careful when you flop middle or bottom trips, because you might lose to higher trips. Nonsense. If you get knocked out of the tournament because you lost in a set-over-set confrontation, then it just wasn't your tournament. When your set gets outflopped, you're supposed to lose a lot of money. When I hear someone telling a story about how he shrewdly laid down middle set after some intricate chain of reasoning convinced him he was beaten, my quick (but silent) reaction is "Idiot."

So, whatever Dan Harrington says goes? I guess I must be an idiot. Apparently Barry Greenstein is an idiot, too, since he talks in his book about a tournament hand where he correctly folded a set of queens to his opponents set of aces.

If someone is making a play which is only consistent with a higher set, do you just pray the person is heavily overplaying his hand and put all your money in the pot? This seems stubborn and idiotic.

[dsaxton]

and, i called the turn and river blanks because i think if true blanks came and he pushed the river you'd have folded anyway, making the turn j effectively a blank

The turn gives a better full house to A-J, which is one of his possible (though only remotely) hands.

[Sed]

I've run into this guy before on the final or send to last table of an MTT, pretty solid player.

I could see him betting up the flop like that with AJ trying to extract money from a weaker A. Without the second jack on the turn, I think I would have to bet the turn and try to show down on the chance he's got AJ.

- sed

[chardrian]

from the frustrating laydown thread.


Dan Harrington says it best in Harrington on Hold 'Em Volume 2:
Quote:
Trips. These are good slow-playing hands, and are much more common than the stronger hands. Some authors tell you to be careful when you flop middle or bottom trips, because you might lose to higher trips. Nonsense. If you get knocked out of the tournament because you lost in a set-over-set confrontation, then it just wasn't your tournament. When your set gets outflopped, you're supposed to lose a lot of money. When I hear someone telling a story about how he shrewdly laid down middle set after some intricate chain of reasoning convinced him he was beaten, my quick (but silent) reaction is "Idiot."

So, whatever Dan Harrington says goes? I guess I must be an idiot. Apparently Barry Greenstein is an idiot, too, since he talks in his book about a tournament hand where he correctly folded a set of queens to his opponents set of aces.

If someone is making a play which is only consistent with a higher set, do you just pray the person is heavily overplaying his hand and put all your money in the pot? This seems stubborn and idiotic.

This also isn't a tourney - it's a cash game. I don't think a push on the flop woulda been a bad play though. He most likely has AA (likely), JJ (not as likely given the turn), AK, AJ, or A6. Sure you might be losing to AA but we all take some beats you can't get away from. Since you did call though, I think your fold was fine.

[Greedo017]

sorry dsaxton, by posting that i didn't mean to call you an idiot, nor did i mean that what he says goes. everyone has their opinion. i even tend to agree with you, that it seems like he had a higher set. i was just giving some agreement for the push argument, i think many people do say get destacked in (almost) every set over set situation, because you only get set over setted rarely and there's a high chance of being wrong, like kk vs aa. but its totally your call.

and, my reasoning for saying the j is a blank, is because i was assuming that if no j came, the hand would've played out the exact same way. the j coming effectively had no impact on the hand (thus is a blank), because you were scared enough of aa/jj that it didn't matter whether aj beat you too. if two non-j's came and he pushed would you have called? if so why not push the flop? (this is kindof a pointless point i'm making, its not really important to the point of the thread. but i just wanted to explain my reason for calling the J a blank, because if you don't understand why i said it i look like a bit of an idiot.)

[Staple Gun]

He coulda had KQ hearts, or 10-Q hearts also. I say push the flop still, no its not correct in every situation with a set because usually your sloplaying it or there is a dangerous board. I would say if you push the flop you win this at least 50% of the time.

That being said it also couldve been a damn good laydown, only problem was that you called the flop assuming you were beat.

[Staple Gun]

Double post

[Theeggman]

you that sure he's got rockets?

Wouldn't a pf reraise give you this info?

*edit* maybe reraising w/66 isn't the best idea.

[dsaxton]

Here's an almost identical situation, except with a different outcome. I just called him on the flop and turn to get a sense of how strong he was (obviously I was worried about A-A). On the river I was sure I was ahead and put him all-in.

Edit: Not that I was going to fold anyways given his tiny stack, but I figured I could also win more from a bluff this way.

PokerStars Game #2133986076: Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2) - 2005/07/18 - 20:30:23 (ET)
Table 'Lesath III' Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: Bendero ($168.20 in chips)
Seat 2: daddymac113 ($80 in chips)
Seat 3: redbirdtiger ($198 in chips)
Seat 4: Towny2 ($137.20 in chips)
Seat 5: swindler5000 ($217.70 in chips)
Seat 6: dsaxton ($326.20 in chips)
Seat 7: jeffstars ($175.05 in chips)
Seat 8: Fox 002 ($196.60 in chips)
Seat 9: J2THEL531 ($219.75 in chips)
Bendero: posts small blind $1
daddymac113: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to dsaxton [5h 5d]
redbirdtiger: raises $4 to $6
Towny2: folds
swindler5000: folds
dsaxton: calls $6
jeffstars: folds
Fox 002: folds
J2THEL531: folds
Bendero: folds
daddymac113: raises $4 to $10
redbirdtiger: calls $4
dsaxton: calls $4
*** FLOP *** [5s 9h As]
daddymac113: checks
redbirdtiger: checks
dsaxton: bets $8
daddymac113: raises $8 to $16
redbirdtiger: folds
dsaxton: calls $8
*** TURN *** [5s 9h As] [4d]
daddymac113: bets $10
dsaxton: calls $10
*** RIVER *** [5s 9h As 4d] [2c]
daddymac113: bets $10
dsaxton: raises $50 to $60
daddymac113: calls $34 and is all-in
*** SHOW DOWN ***
dsaxton: shows [5h 5d] (three of a kind, Fives)
daddymac113: mucks hand
dsaxton collected $168 from pot
daddymac113 leaves the table
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $171 | Rake $3
Board [5s 9h As 4d 2c]
Seat 1: Bendero (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: daddymac113 (big blind) mucked [Kd Kc]
Seat 3: redbirdtiger folded on the Flop
Seat 4: Towny2 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: swindler5000 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: dsaxton showed [5h 5d] and won ($168) with three of a kind, Fives
Seat 7: jeffstars folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Fox 002 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: J2THEL531 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

[Staple Gun]

See, after that flop and turn you wouldve assumed he had at least TPTK, maybe a set, but it turns out hes just a fish.

You did say something earlier about knowing this guy was solid so its not quite the same.

Here's an almost identical situation, except with a different outcome. I just called him on the flop and turn to get a sense of how strong he was (obviously I was worried about A-A). On the river I was sure I was ahead and put him all-in.

I would only call the reraise on the flop to induce a bluff. When I flop a monster and think the other person will reraise, I love the raise-call. It makes them think they're in control of the hand. Also I dont understand how only calling gives you a sense of how strong he is.

[dsaxton]

See, after that flop and turn you wouldve assumed he had at least TPTK, maybe a set, but it turns out hes just a fish.

You did say something earlier about knowing this guy was solid so its not quite the same.

Here's an almost identical situation, except with a different outcome. I just called him on the flop and turn to get a sense of how strong he was (obviously I was worried about A-A). On the river I was sure I was ahead and put him all-in.

I would only call the reraise on the flop to induce a bluff. When I flop a monster and think the other person will reraise, I love the raise-call. It makes them think they're in control of the hand. Also I dont understand how only calling gives you a sense of how strong he is.

I wanted to see how he acted on the turn and river, after which point it was pretty obvious he didn't have a very strong hand.

[Staple Gun]

I personally would have played the original hand different, trying not to give away my hand to much on the flop. Anyways I think if he has a set, i lose my money in this situation, the jack on the turn might save me a little bit though.

[dsaxton]

This is just scary how often it actually happens. I have no idea what business this guy had calling a bet and a check-raise on the flop.

PokerStars Game #2141269645: Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2) - 2005/07/19 - 19:58:19 (ET)
Table 'Penthesilea' Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: gatrpimp21 ($441.40 in chips)
Seat 2: Nutss ($75.65 in chips)
Seat 3: SmokedYou ($154.80 in chips)
Seat 4: papasmurfer ($155.65 in chips)
Seat 5: Naughty-1 ($226.65 in chips)
Seat 6: Takesall7 ($180.80 in chips)
Seat 7: kyzrsoze2005 ($115.95 in chips)
Seat 8: JayDollars ($70.40 in chips)
Seat 9: dsaxton ($298.40 in chips)
gatrpimp21: posts small blind $1
Nutss: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to dsaxton [8h 8d]
SmokedYou: calls $2
papasmurfer: folds
Naughty-1: raises $2 to $4
Takesall7: folds
kyzrsoze2005: folds
kyzrsoze2005 is sitting out
JayDollars: folds
dsaxton: calls $4
gatrpimp21: folds
Nutss: calls $2
SmokedYou: calls $2
*** FLOP *** [8s 9d Ah]
Nutss: checks
SmokedYou: checks
Naughty-1: checks
dsaxton: bets $7
Nutss: raises $9 to $16
SmokedYou: folds
Naughty-1: calls $16
dsaxton: calls $9
*** TURN *** [8s 9d Ah] [Kd]
Nutss: bets $55.65 and is all-in
Naughty-1: calls $55.65
dsaxton: calls $55.65
*** RIVER *** [8s 9d Ah Kd] [Kc]
Naughty-1: bets $151 and is all-in
dsaxton: folds
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Naughty-1: shows [Kh Ks] (four of a kind, Kings)
Nutss: mucks hand
Naughty-1 collected $228.95 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $231.95 | Rake $3
Board [8s 9d Ah Kd Kc]
Seat 1: gatrpimp21 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: Nutss (big blind) mucked [9c As]
Seat 3: SmokedYou folded on the Flop
Seat 4: papasmurfer folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Naughty-1 showed [Kh Ks] and won ($228.95) with four of a kind, Kings
Seat 6: Takesall7 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: kyzrsoze2005 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: JayDollars folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: dsaxton (button) folded on the River