Please help with this KK hand

[MNMP2]

This was a weird tourney for me. We were only about into the 10th hand of this thing, and I had already been dealt 88, AJs, ATs. I had lost all those hands but got back to even when on the big blind I had 86s and flopped the striaght. So these players might have thought I was loose.

Tell me if you think I should have backed off this hand.

** Game ID 429758199 starting - 2005-07-21 22:43:56
** $10 NL Freezeout:Table 4 [Multi Table Hold 'em] (20.00|40.00 No Limit - MTT) Real Money

- aces666 sitting in seat 1 with $880.00
- MNMP2 sitting in seat 2 with $1520.00
- Turkman sitting in seat 3 with $2640.00
- PapaGrec sitting in seat 4 with $1910.00
- TheExistenz sitting in seat 5 with $1740.00
- bkline1 sitting in seat 6 with $2500.00
- krystall10 sitting in seat 8 with $1230.00 [Dealer]
- Gorno sitting in seat 9 with $1070.00
- R_T_M sitting in seat 10 with $1670.00

Gorno posted the small blind - $10.00
R_T_M posted the big blind - $20.00

** Dealing card to MNMP2: King of Hearts, King of Clubs
aces666 called - $20.00
MNMP2 raised - $60.00
Turkman raised - $240.00
PapaGrec folded
TheExistenz called - $240.00
bkline1 folded
krystall10 folded
Gorno folded
R_T_M folded
aces666 folded
MNMP2 raised - $540.00
Turkman folded
TheExistenz called - $540.00

** Dealing the flop: 10 of Clubs, Queen of Spades, Jack of Hearts
MNMP2 bet - $300.00
TheExistenz went all-in - $1200.00
MNMP2 went all-in - $680.00
TheExistenz shows: Jack of Diamonds, Jack of Clubs

** Dealing the turn: 3 of Hearts

** Dealing the river: 8 of Hearts
TheExistenz wins $3330.00 from the main pot

End of game 429758199

[TylerK]

Even just based on pot odds you're good to call, never mind the fact that you might be ahead.

[gabe]

you lost to a worse hand. sorry.

[MNMP2]

Just want to add:

I'm not posting this hand as a beat beat feel sorry for me deal.

Just want to know if I played this right. I dont care about the results of the hand - just trying to learn here.

[Nylaan]

It's hard to tell what he has because he only calls. I think it's safe to assume it's a good hand after calling two big raises and that he improved on the flop by going AI, so it's not likely to be AA. Pushing all in before the flop may cause him to fold - hard to tell. Since you are UTG+1 this might not be a consideration since you still have so little information.

Flop is good for you; no flush draw, you still have overpair and picked up an OESD. The bet is appropriate; could argue the amount but in this case it doesn't matter because he would end up pushing anyway.

Unfortunately since it is early you might not have a read on if he might have AK, because this hand would have you dominated; you would only have 3 outs to split the pot. Other than that hand you look pretty safe to call. If he has trips you are a 2 to 1 underdog and if he has 2 pair it's a coin flip. Pot odds suggest this is a good call. He could just have TPTK though and you would be a heavy favorite to win.

I would remember this hand as a good example why position is important. If he was in earlier position and went all-in after the flop, the pot odds change considerably, and I think folding is worth considering in that case.

[drmcboy]

I'd just move in pre flop, I don't want to play KK in a 3 way pot. Also you said you may have loose image, may get a weak call from AK/AQ. You're giving a nice price to call here.

No chance you fold on that flop IMO, especially early in a 10 FO- AQ, KQ, even AJ probably moving on that board, and as said if someone has two pair or set you've got outs.

[chardrian]

I'd like to know your rationale for reraising to 540. I think your two options preflop were either call and then play accordingly postflop or push. Although the raise worked to get one guy out (which actually surprises me quite a bit), it didn't give you that much information and basically committed you to this hand unless an A came on the flop (and even then I know a lot of players would stll be married to their boys). In the end this was just a bad beat and even if you had pushed preflop I doubt the outcome woulda changed, but at least then you could blame him for being the dumbass.

[ZenOffsuit]

I'd like to know your rationale for reraising to 540. I think your two options preflop were either call and then play accordingly postflop or push. Although the raise worked to get one guy out (which actually surprises me quite a bit), it didn't give you that much information and basically committed you to this hand unless an A came on the flop (and even then I know a lot of players would stll be married to their boys). In the end this was just a bad beat and even if you had pushed preflop I doubt the outcome woulda changed, but at least then you could blame him for being the dumbass.

I would add that my pre-flop raise would have been at least 6-7xbb. If he re-raises, I push. A raise to 60 is not going to scare anyone off especially fish that overvalue their hands. At this ealy stage I never worry that my opponent has Aces....I may need to avoid one but, I play Ks like they were As this early.

[chardrian]

I would add that my pre-flop raise would have been at least 6-7xbb. If he re-raises, I push. A raise to 60 is not going to scare anyone off especially fish that overvalue their hands.

Why do you want to scare fish off with a monster hand?

[Aces]

After your intial raise, then a huge reraise and call, I push PF.

[Nylaan]

You want to scare fish off because the more people in a hand, the bigger odds of your kings being cracked. If you are not betting properly and a fish is able to see a flop with T3s and hits his flush are you willing to fold that? Assuming no one has pocket aces, each person that sees the flop cuts your chances another 10% or so - if someone has an ace take off another 10%.

Slowplaying won't get you more chips because if fish can see the flop cheaply enough they will play anything and just throw away if they don't hit the flop. I'd rather go HU with KK with much more in the pot and that gives me better odds as well as a bigger pot. On some occasions you might only win blinds but in the long run I like having better odds. For example, (assume 10/20 blinds) one person calling a 400 bet is better than 5 calling an 80 bet because your potential winnings are the same, but your odds are greatly diminished (at least by 30% based on my rule of thumb). I know poker is a lot about circumstances, but all things equal, the 400 bet has a higher EV over time even if everyone folds preflop on occasion.

[chardrian]

I'm obviously not going to diagree about not wanting 10 players in your hand when u have KK. But he was UTG+1... you DO want someone in this hand against you. I generally am a 4xBB raising early no matter what so with one limper in front I can see making it 5xBB here. Otherwise... making 6-7xBB raises when you have a monster and only 3xBB raises when you have a good hand becomes a pretty damn easy read. You want to be making consistent raises so people can't read what you have.

Now if he had been CO and had 6 limpers in front - of course you make a big bet to get the majority (or all) of those fish out. But you would be making this big bet on a steal for a big pot as well so it's not a "tell."

[ZenOffsuit]

I would add that my pre-flop raise would have been at least 6-7xbb. If he re-raises, I push. A raise to 60 is not going to scare anyone off especially fish that overvalue their hands.

Why do you want to scare fish off with a monster hand?

I also want to avoid 6 players coming in w/ random drawing hands and hitting a flop. I want to raise big enough this early to isolate against one, maybe two players. And even a raise of 6-7x BB will still get action early on.

[chardrian]

And even a raise of 6-7x BB will still get action early on.

I gotta start playing some more Freezeouts then. In the rebuy hour yes big bets happen all the time. But I don't care how early it is - somone betting 6-7xBB in UTG or UTG+1 spells monster to me. I'm only playing against that raise if I have a monster. It's not worth giving up a good chunk of early chips just cuz the blinds are low. Take my 10 chips all you want early on with big raises.

I still go with my standard 4xBB raise here preflop. If the whole table calls, fine - I'll play it more cautiously, even be willing to let go of my boys for what is still pretty cheap. But usually you won't get that many callers when you make a standard raise. And now your monster hand is atually (usually) gonna be making you some dough.

[ZenOffsuit]

I guess I should add to that statement that my bet size will change based on position. The earlier I act, the bigger the raise. Based on seeing it firsthand, one of the other players behind me will usually call, sometimes two. The risk is no action at all but when you are in fishy conditions early on in a SnG, this type of raise seems right.

Late position raise will be more standard.

[chardrian]

This ain't no SNG, it's an MTT. But even in an SNG a 6-7x BB raise has me scurrying.

[MNMP2]

I have been trying a few different strategies out for early MTT play in regards to preflop raising.

After reading strategy guides on here, I was only making the 3-4xbb raise no matter what I had. Then for a while I was making bigger raises 6-7xbb early when the blinds are low, and going back to 3-4xbb once the blinds went up. Then once, soupie responded to one of my posts and said start thinking like a poker player and stop trying to follow a strict strategy all the time.

So lately my strategy is to go with what i am trying to accomplish and table texture early in an MTT before I settle in to the standard 3xbb raise for every hand I play mode.

Lately I have been working this re-raise move because I notice people putting alot of chips out with not so strong hands. I like to make my standard raise when i am early pos and let someone else be the aggressor (which almost always there is one this early) and then slam them with a reraise. It confuses them, and many time these players think you are bluffing when you do that. I am getting more chips into the pot this way and still ending up heads up most times with the stronger hand. Just like what happened here.

[greyishhue]

Personally I don't think you played the hand wrongly apart from perhaps your original bet of only $60. That to me was showing a slight sign of weakness on your part. 4xBB or even 5xBB would have been a little better, but that said would probably not have put him off calling with JJ.

I think you have to remember that tournaments are long things and only ten hands in, from there you are not going to win the tournament when there are still several hours to go. Personally, after the guy had re-raised your original bet of $60, the only two options left to you were fold (because it is so early in the tournament and it is possible he has AA??) or go all in over the top of his re-raise if you are really confident that you are ahead. This may convince the other play that he is behind and fold their hand. However, I find that in most tournaments people who commit chips over the top of an initial raise are usually players that will call almost any bet if they have PP because they think they are ahead, rather than thinking of waiting for a better spot. Personally I hate playing JJ and if someone had gone all in over the top of my re-raise then I think I would have probably got the message and laid down, especially that early in the tournament. As I said earlier in this post a tournament is not won in the first 10 hands.

My final comment is that pre flop you were a huge favourite in this hand against JJ. After the flop you were in massive trouble and did you not think that the other player may have had PP because of his original re-raise? Perhaps you should have considered the PP improving to a set on the flop and seriously considered folding. Especially that early in the tournament. There is no disgrace in laying down at that stage and living to fight another day, but it would have been a bloody good lay down to make. I am not sure I would have acted any differently to you in that situation.

[Miffed22001]

Personally i show them all the kings then move my stack in over the top of everyone else.
If some one beats me with an ace or a set i aint happy but hey push the damn things in the middle.
JJ is probably going to call anyway if he reraises you preflop. Then its just that he hits the 2 outs. A beat for me.
I'd just stress here that the play is preflop. WIth good hands and messy stuff going on preflop if you have a great hand push the chips in. Let others either make bad calls with dominated hands or at least make them make tough calls with marginal hands like JJ TT. imo if you dont play it strong preflop then when the flop comes you probably have to face some nasty choices. The marginal hands that could beat you post flop may not call you preflop if your ultra aggressive (or just sensible with KK- pushing)
If they can put hands down (i think id have put the jacks down here if you had pushed over a reraise) then congrats to em but most wont and you'll have to face the idea that the best pre flop hand doesnt always win, but often it does, but PLEASE get your chips in when your winning. Your behind only one hand preflop, the rockets.

p.s
as to the 'maybe you should put em down coz the aces might be out there' thats just far too weak. Ill pay aces off any day for the amount of times JJ QQ AQ and other stuff calls and misses.
how can you ever, ever think of folding preflop unless you KNOW i repeat K-N-O-W he has aces?