Is this my biggest weakness or theirs?

[Chicago_Kid]

Although I KNOW I shouldn't be, I'm so friggin' tired of fish putting everything on the line on any flush draw, and taking me out when they hit their shitty draws. I get burned most every tournament by these after playing stone cold for an hour or more...are any of these avoidable? Perhaps I'm not raising enough? How do you EVER get value out of good hands when you always have to fear this damn flush...

PokerStars Game #2197080869: Tournament #10556015, Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2005/07/27 - 00:44:02 (ET)
Table '10556015 3' Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: DaChicagoKid (1640 in chips)
Seat 2: ostech (2685 in chips)
Seat 5: imdavev (1990 in chips)
Seat 6: youblow1 (1380 in chips)
Seat 7: highguy44 (2565 in chips)
Seat 8: hafe (3240 in chips)
imdavev: posts small blind 25
youblow1: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to DaChicagoKid [Qs Ks]
highguy44: calls 50
hafe: folds
DaChicagoKid: raises 50 to 100
ostech: folds
imdavev: calls 75
youblow1: folds
highguy44: calls 50
*** FLOP *** [4h Kh 4c]
imdavev: checks
highguy44: checks
DaChicagoKid: bets 250
imdavev: calls 250
highguy44: folds
*** TURN *** [4h Kh 4c] [3h]
imdavev: bets 250
DaChicagoKid: calls 250
*** RIVER *** [4h Kh 4c 3h] [5h]
imdavev: checks
DaChicagoKid: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
imdavev: shows [Jh Th] (a flush, King high)
DaChicagoKid: mucks hand
imdavev collected 1350 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1350 | Rake 0
Board [4h Kh 4c 3h 5h]
Seat 1: DaChicagoKid mucked [Qs Ks]
Seat 2: ostech (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: imdavev (small blind) showed [Jh Th] and won (1350) with a flush, King high
Seat 6: youblow1 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: highguy44 folded on the Flop
Seat 8: hafe folded before Flop (didn't bet)


PokerStars Game #2196708643: Tournament #10400580, Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2005/07/27 - 00:00:00 (ET)
Table '10400580 33' Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: Noodles69 (2755 in chips)
Seat 2: coachoop14 (1340 in chips)
Seat 3: DaChicagoKid (2845 in chips)
Seat 4: BigAndSlick7 (1320 in chips)
Seat 5: gcc1 (985 in chips)
Seat 6: SadNess (1730 in chips)
Seat 7: maxthedog10 (2570 in chips)
Seat 8: Actually.... (1760 in chips)
Seat 9: longdrive330 (3775 in chips)
DaChicagoKid: posts small blind 15
BigAndSlick7: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to DaChicagoKid [Ad Ac]
gcc1: folds
SadNess: folds
maxthedog10: folds
Actually....: calls 30
longdrive330: calls 30
Noodles69: folds
coachoop14: folds
DaChicagoKid: raises 220 to 250
BigAndSlick7: folds
Actually....: calls 220
longdrive330: calls 220
*** FLOP *** [6s 7h 3s]
DaChicagoKid: bets 900
Actually....: raises 610 to 1510 and is all-in
longdrive330: raises 900 to 2410
DaChicagoKid: calls 1510
*** TURN *** [6s 7h 3s] [5d]
DaChicagoKid: checks
longdrive330: bets 210
DaChicagoKid: calls 185 and is all-in
*** RIVER *** [6s 7h 3s 5d] [Js]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
DaChicagoKid: shows [Ad Ac] (a pair of Aces)
longdrive330: shows [7s 5s] (a flush, Jack high)
longdrive330 collected 2170 from side pot
Actually....: shows [Tc Ts] (a pair of Tens)
DaChicagoKid said, "that is horrible"
longdrive330 collected 5310 from main pot
richie4627 is connected
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 7480 Main pot 5310. Side pot 2170. | Rake 0
Board [6s 7h 3s 5d Js]
Seat 1: Noodles69 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: coachoop14 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: DaChicagoKid (small blind) showed [Ad Ac] and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 4: BigAndSlick7 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: gcc1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: SadNess folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: maxthedog10 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Actually.... showed [Tc Ts] and lost with a pair of Tens
Seat 9: longdrive330 showed [7s 5s] and won (7480) with a flush, Jack high

***** Hand History for Game 2424945040 *****
NL Texas Hold'em Trny:14260146 Level:7 Blinds (100/200) - Monday, July 25, 23:31:31 EDT 2005
Table $34,000 Guaranteed(403486) Table #17 (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: moneytoburn5 ( $5488 )
Seat 2: bourbonduke ( $7088 )
Seat 3: PissedOff_Kid ( $3780 )
Seat 4: UNCLEGE ( $2320 )
Seat 6: mcwho ( $13377 )
Seat 7: NYsee ( $1650 )
Seat 8: sssvablue ( $3435 )
Seat 9: soggyfrog54 ( $3220 )
Seat 10: CtheMagic ( $6668 )
Trny:14260146 Level:7
Blinds (100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to PissedOff_Kid [ 6s 7h ]
sssvablue folds.
soggyfrog54 folds.
enriquegor has joined the table.
Player enriquegor has been moved from table 48 to this table
CtheMagic folds.
moneytoburn5 folds.
bourbonduke folds.
PissedOff_Kid raises [500].
UNCLEGE folds.
mcwho folds.
NYsee calls [300].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 7d, 2s, 6h ]
NYsee checks.
PissedOff_Kid bets [300].
NYsee calls [300].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Kh ]
NYsee checks.
PissedOff_Kid bets [1100].
NYsee is all-In [850]
** Dealing River ** [ 4h ]
PissedOff_Kid shows [ 6s, 7h ] two pairs, sevens and sixes.
NYsee shows [ 3h, 2h ] a flush, king high.
PissedOff_Kid wins 250 chips from side pot #1 with two pairs, sevens and sixes.
NYsee wins 3400 chips from the main pot with a flush, king high.

[Death_Kube_K]

what are the buyings at those tourneys?

I know some people dont have the proper BR but try to play the higher buyin SnG's/ tourneys. They are tight but it is worth it..... I would rather play with more tighter people than straight up fishy.

P.S

Even if you play higher stake tables there are still gonna be a couple fish to donate there chips. Just not as many fish.

[Miffed22001]

First things first.
Some people are always going to play suited connectors and when the flop a draw they either push all in for a double up or double out or they are going to chase like a son of abitch.
Id say two things.
Firstly this is why i dont play any suited junk unless its either two face cards or im on the blinds. Chasing simply isnt worth the rsik in mtt play IMO.
Second, how do we as players who dont offer good odds for people to draw play against this. Answer: i dont know for sure.
soooo many mtts i play in have this scenario, my made hand against his flush draw. I make them pay. The turn costs them the pot, the river may very well cost them their stack on a 9~ outer.
My advice is this, get them all in if you can. Ill take the made hand against any draw. You will find that most of the times you make the money in mtts its because of a hand like this. Your hand either holds up and you get a nice stack or you get beat.
Thus you have to try and get the drawer all in so push your stack i would say. Thus if he misses which is likely you get the reward. You'll find that some will think twice about the push.

[ZenOffsuit]

All you can do is keep forcing them to pay up if they want to catch their flush. I want an idiot that will call off another 175 chips preflop at my table every night!!

It sucks but you just need to focus on the process not the results.....if you are making the right decisions, then keep doing it!

By the way, I do not like your raise to 100 on that 1st hand. You allowed for an easy call and showed no real strength preflop. Clearly, fish don't know what raises and pot odds are so why bother when the blinds are this level. limp and then fold if you miss.

[gabe]

the first hand you min raised. don't min raise.

[Chicago_Kid]

You will find that most of the times you make the money in mtts its because of a hand like this. Your hand either holds up and you get a nice stack or you get beat.

Yeah...I figure that you need to win at least a couple of these to make the money. Lately, I've been burned most everytime...with some ass calling off his whole stack when I'm ahead 2-1 or more.

This run, of what I think is bad luck, is killing me, as I'm probably "doughnut" for my last 15 tourneys (probably my worst run ever). I just cannot get past the bubble without getting outdrawn in a major way.

[Chicago_Kid]

By the way, I do not like your raise to 100 on that 1st hand. You allowed for an easy call and showed no real strength preflop. Clearly, fish don't know what raises and pot odds are so why bother when the blinds are this level. limp and then fold if you miss.

My rationale was to get the blinds to fold, to buy some more outs. I suppose a min raise doesnt succeed enough at this.

[SnoT_III]

You should be happy that people chase their flush. Realize when they are on the draw and make pot sized bets. They are the underdog.

[elanto]

i think you played the second and third hand properly but on the first hand raise it up to 200 or so...min raising is weak and inefficient let alone against fish who are more than willing to call with junk hands


-anto

[DBL0SVN]

You should be happy that people chase their flush. Realize when they are on the draw and make pot sized bets. They are the underdog.

Pot sized bets making people pay to chase their flush is OK if you have a big stack. Got to be careful since an average stack will soon end up AI - and it only takes a few of those AIs, and you'l be out of the tournie. It's a good move in ring and SnGs but early on in a big MTT, I prefer 1/2 pot sized bets and be ready to lay down your TPTK, if there's any chance they've hit their flush or straight. Basically, early in a MTT I'd rather take a smaller pot than risk busting out when I try and double up. Once you are past the 3rd or 4th level, people stop chasing flushes - the fish are either out or it's too expensive.

[Staple Gun]

the first hand you min raised. don't min raise.

Quoted for emphasis

[SnoT_III]

You should be happy that people chase their flush. Realize when they are on the draw and make pot sized bets. They are the underdog.

Pot sized bets making people pay to chase their flush is OK if you have a big stack. Got to be careful since an average stack will soon end up AI - and it only takes a few of those AIs, and you'l be out of the tournie. It's a good move in ring and SnGs but early on in a big MTT, I prefer 1/2 pot sized bets and be ready to lay down your TPTK, if there's any chance they've hit their flush or straight. Basically, early in a MTT I'd rather take a smaller pot than risk busting out when I try and double up. Once you are past the 3rd or 4th level, people stop chasing flushes - the fish are either out or it's too expensive.

Making a 1/2 pot bet gives them the right odds to call.

[zenbitz]

Hand 1: You DIDN'T lose your stack, you are still in, quit bitching especially if you are only going to min-raise.

Hand 2: longdrive has top pair, flush draw and gut shot. That's like 17 outs vs. any thing he is behind except a better kicker (i.e, A7 or some crap). The guy with 10s probably assumes you don't have an overpair and is trying to isolate vs overcards or a draw (I think he can assume that that flop missed unless you have AK/Q/Js.

Hand 3: OK, that's a suckout, but what was the 1/3rd pot bet on the flop? Plus, how is he supposed to put you on 2 pair there?

Hand 3: