tricky river...

[SinkRox]

** Game ID 305942371 starting - 2005-09-02 15:43:29
** Aero [Hold 'em] (0.10|0.20 No Limit - Cash Game) Real Money

- macarron sitting in seat 1 with $8.00
- Cokken sitting in seat 2 with $0.00 [Sitting out]
- Mattew8024 sitting in seat 3 with $80.57
- Schybbo sitting in seat 5 with $2.63
- SuperSennels sitting in seat 6 with $50.73
- SinkRox sitting in seat 7 with $40.62
- julionetix sitting in seat 8 with $6.45 [Dealer]
- Gislos sitting in seat 9 with $15.85
- hariboh sitting in seat 10 with $7.05

Gislos posted the small blind - $0.10
hariboh posted the big blind - $0.20

** Dealing card to SinkRox: King of Spades, King of Hearts
macarron folded
Mattew8024 raised - $2.60
Schybbo folded
SuperSennels folded
SinkRox raised - $10.40
julionetix folded
Gislos folded
hariboh folded
Mattew8024 called - $10.40

** Dealing the flop: 9 of Diamonds, 7 of Hearts, King of Clubs
Mattew8024 checked
SinkRox checked

** Dealing the turn: Jack of Hearts
Mattew8024 bet - $2.20
SinkRox raised - $8.80
Mattew8024 called - $8.80

** Dealing the river: 10 of Spades
Mattew8024 bet - $14.40
SinkRox called - $14.40
Mattew8024 shows: Queen of Spades, Queen of Hearts
SinkRox mucks: King of Spades, King of Hearts
Mattew8024 wins $64.50 from the main pot

End of game 305942371

he either has jj or qq, i am more than 66% sure he has qq > so im very p1ssed off with my river call. what do you guys think?

[ejdewey]

Well, Mattew was calling against his pot odds on the turn (if I calculated it correctly), so maybe he would have folded the GSSD there if you had raised more. BUT, if you were that sure he had a queen and the board showed a straight, why call?

[dsaxton]

Bet on the flop. There's absolutely nothing deceptive about checking behind on a king high flop after reraising preflop. The slow play is going to cause you to either, lose a lot more when he hits a backdoor draw, or win a little more if he's dumb enough not to see through your trap and try to bluff or think a marginal hand is good.

[SinkRox]

i called because i thought i had good pot odds, it was only when looking back and figureing i needed to be 60odd% sure he had a queen to fold, that i realised i WAS that sure he had qq and realised i should of folded.

assigning hands to %s and relating to pot odds is quite new to me, i understand sklanksy teaches/recommends it but having none of his books im kinda self teaching myself this aspect of the game - does anyone have any links on this subject?

[r8ed]

Bet on the flop. There's absolutely nothing deceptive about checking behind on a king high flop after reraising preflop. The slow play is going to cause you to either, lose a lot more when he hits a backdoor draw, or win a little more if he's dumb enough not to see through your trap and try to bluff or think a marginal hand is good.

I agree. It looks like a great flop for you so yeah, you want to get some money from him. But, if you make a 2/3 or pot sized bet on the flop you will either take a decent sized pot or he will call. Then I would push on the turn if he calls the flop. If he has any brains, he'll fold and kick himself for even calling the flop bet. Since the turn is a jack and you push, he has to know he is beat by AA,KK,JJ,AK - the likely hands you would raise $10 preflop.

It's easier to dissect once you know the result. You didn't play it horribly wrong. River card sucked, but he could of had AA,JJ,AK, and even TT. People will hold those to the river often. That's a tough laydown.

[dsaxton]

Another subtle reason I like to make a reasonable bet here is to conceal my strength. Some players might play cautiously with a small set or two pair in situations like these if it seems as though I was slow-playing on the flop, or if scare cards for their hands show on later streets (another consequence of slow-playing your hand), but if I continue on the flop and represent A-A, my opponent will almost definitely think he has the best hand and will gladly give me his full stack.

Not a very important factor, and most players in these situations will probably give you their stacks anyways, but it's worth noting, I think.