The thread lock.

[a500lbgorilla]

I asked VQ to lock the thread becuase it was openly journying down a path that, for the good of online STTs, no one should ever venture.

It's the ability to defeat sngs with a positive ROI (no matter how small) with just simple mathematical analysis and preflop play.

Online SnGs are the only form of poker that you can learn to beat in about 10 mins if you have a good teacher. And that you can learn to beat WELL with a great teacher. Basically, with the fast blinds of the online scene you're taking a 4 street form of poker and reducing to to 1.5 streets. And 2/3rds of the time, you can know with a great ammount of certaintly how well you fair. With this knowledge, someone could try to perfect an ABC system to beat the 5.5s, 11s or 22s for 05 ROI + rakeback.

Bots are not hard to spot at SnGs. N00bs hate bots. If n00bs go away, we hate SnGs.

I have no problem with the discussion of a system of just pushing preflop, but when you start to test the system and it starts to work, THEN you start to figure out an exact system that reads like "figure out M, if M = bleh, push with meh" Here you're just offering people to REALLY test this system out. You can report on your progress through your sig and in a new thread once you've completed 1000 sngs. I just dont want to see people openly developing formulas to squeeze money out of the 5.5s

A breakeven bot + rakeback that can play 12~16 (or 24 if you feel like pushing boundaries) hrs/day (4hrs, 4 tables, per skin) is incentive enough for a good man to go bad. And if only one n00b at each table he plays recognized he's a bot and stops playing on line, that's like could easily start representing money in your pocket in a month or two.

Am I crazy?

-'rilla

[booradly07]

I think everyone already knows your crazy... :P

Having said that, I am surprised you guys didn't lock this one down sooner. Bots are a scary scary thing for those who actually want to take the game seriously and win with their wits. Sure I can beat a bot in the long run but your point about noob's/fishies being disheartened and quitting is true and as soon as they start quitting everyone else starts quitting when the games dry up and become harder to beat and then the online game is over or reduced to bot wars as mentioned earlier. I don't know about ya'll but I can't afford the time to go to B&M to play other than occasionally but with online play I can get in as much time as any pro.

This whole thing is bullshit and it pisses me off in a big way. I hope they are hung from the neck until dead. OK, not really but hang all the bots from the neck anyway.

[Squeak2k2]

I absolutely understand, and I apologize for letting the thread get to the point of discussing bots. That is the last thing I want. My absolute initial intention was to test a 'playing style' that most players have a lot of trouble playing against.

I am truely sorry for anything I might have started, and thank you for trying to preserve the game as it should be.

[a500lbgorilla]

It ain't yo fault, g.

-'rilla

[Squeak2k2]

Heh, just feel like my experiment might lead some people to go and basically destroy the lower buyin SnG's....

[Fnord]

o There are already bots out there and/or players playing very formula push or fold. At least in the Party 20s-100s per accounts I've heard.
o There are ways to attack push or fold robots. They tend to play incorrectly against open-limps and min-raises as this often forces them to play at least 2 streets. Botting post-flop is hard.
o However, there is legit concern if push/fold bots can be beaten for any amount worth playing for.
o The over-all play in these has gotten a lot better as good information has gotten out. As low as the Stars $20 level playing tight will only get you to the final 5-6 where-as it used to be quite common for everyone to quickly self-destruct down to around 4. Many of these same tight players are changing gears later on when the table gets short and the blinds get really big.
o Did I mention how much these guys suck post-flop?

[Trikflow77]

Ive taught 2 people to play SNG's now......one has a very high ROI in the 11's-33's.....the other one is a 15% in the 11's........still has some work to do. These things are very easy to beat..... most players that have played cards for any length of time can be taught to crush sngs......botting on the other hand is a different story. The few bots that have been spotted have not beaten the rake, because they cannot play post flop. Once this is worked out they will beat the low limit donks for a marginal profit.....which doesnt really bother me.

[nickthefool]

It's not the point that the bots will make money that is the major issue - it is more that the fish will see that there are bots playing and quit playing, making it a lot harder for regular players to make money due to the lack of fish.