i guess im not good enough to get stop and go play to work

[lovemachine]

i was pretty sure i was ahead here preflop but figured he would call if i shoved over the top, and didn't want to race against live cards so i decided to try the stop and go. on the flop i had 1220 and decided to bet out 1000, i thought it might look stronger than just open shoving, even though its basically about the same amount of chips and if does put me all-in im committed and won't hesitate about calling. do you guys think its better to make a bet like this so they think you are value betting or do you just shove all-in??

***** Hand History for Game 2705447576 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $100 Buy-in + $9 Entry Fee Trny:15704353 Level:7 Blinds(150/300) - Tuesday, September 13, 17:42:49 EDT 2005
Table Table 11823 (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 2: ronnylove ( $1920 )
Seat 3: pintsize21 ( $3200 )
Seat 6: BigDealOrg ( $2710 )
Seat 7: GDT_Dave ( $2170 )
Trny:15704353 Level:7
Blinds(150/300)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ronnylove [ 7s Ad ]
>You have options at Table 35016 Table!.
pintsize21 raises [700].
BigDealOrg folds.
GDT_Dave folds.
ronnylove calls [400].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5h, 4s, Jc ]
ronnylove bets [1000].
pintsize21 is all-In [2500]
ronnylove is all-In [220]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9s ]
** Dealing River ** [ 6d ]
ronnylove shows [ 7s, Ad ] high card ace.
pintsize21 shows [ Kc, 9c ] a pair of nines.
pintsize21 wins 1280 chips from side pot #1 with a pair of nines.
pintsize21 wins 3990 chips from the main pot with a pair of nines.
ronnylove finished in fourth place.
ronnylove has left the table.

[STIdrivr]

I think you should have folded pre flop, even though your play should have worked ( he should have folded on the flop) was this really a 100$ tourney, I cant believe this guy was playing like this in a 100$ buy in tourney

[Irisheyes]

I think you should have folded pre flop, even though your play should have worked ( he should have folded on the flop) was this really a 100$ tourney, I cant believe this guy was playing like this in a 100$ buy in tourney

Why? A7 is g00t 4 handed when you need some bubble aggression chips.

I like to stop and go like this sometimes. I won't do it if my stack is so small that I cant make 3/4 the pot. I don't want him to think its a pot steal.

[zenbitz]

Not sure I play it the same, but he made an awful call. Only thing I can think of is that he read your bluff and had you covered, so WTF..

[PokerPatNEU]

It always looks very very bluffy if you bet almost your entire stack but leave yourself with like 200 chips...It's like your saying "Well if he calls my bluff, at least i am not completely out i still have the chance to double up 4 times and come back."

[lovemachine]

yeah, this is really a $100 party sngs, just started them again yesterday and have been running hot. and yes they are filled with complete donkeys, although this play still amazed me. the question though is whether shoving for 1220 or betting 1000 with the intention of calling if reraised is a better play. it probably won't make much of a difference but maybe one of the two plays looks stronger and will get a fold here more often than not. even though he was ahead i just wanted him to fold since i would rather just have those chips and still be alive on the bubble.

[daluchy]

i was pretty sure i was ahead here preflop but figured he would call if i shoved over the top, and didn't want to race against live cards so i decided to try the stop and go.

Why not? Pushing all in with the best hand with the smallest stack behind the blinds is always a good situation. You had good fold equity until most of your stack was in the pot on the flop.

Yeah just put all your chips in. I mean if there was an Ace on the flop you would of pushed, not make a bet, right?

[gabe]

bad beat

[lovemachine]

the reason i didn't push preflop is because he is too likely to call and i didn't want to get into a 60/40 race and if he had an ace with a rag kicker there is a good chance we split whereas if i push the flop he might lay down an ace-rag. but since im only about 60/40 with A7 vs K9 or K10 or J10 or QJ hands that i figure he might be stealing with i figure i can win the pot more than 60% of the time with the stop and go. and on the bubble i want to survive so i figure this was the best way for me to win the hand. but again im just wondering if maybe shoving all-in on the flop would have got him to fold because maybe, just maybe he was stupid enough to think i'd fold 220 more chips when he raised

[Squeak2k2]

If you have the intention of calling for all your chips, you might as well put them in yourself and leave your opponent with just 2 options with his K9: Call or Fold.

[daluchy]

But if he has Ace rag there's a good chance you beat a dominated hand?

I just think this is too passive of a play for the bubble. The bubble is all about aggression and not fearing to bubble out. I'd be happy to put my SnG at stake being the favorite on a 60/40 chance.

[a500lbgorilla]

bad beat

What about the fact that the stop n go failed so fully when K9 no pair calls?

-'rilla

[drmcboy]

standard, nh. Just move in on the flop, you're over thinking.

daluchy - go read the SNG moves post on the stop n go.

[daluchy]

I know what I stop and go is. I use it alot. I just find it better to push that hand rather than use the stop and go.

I think the stop and go is for when you dont have a great hand or a small pair that can be easily beaten if it goes to showdown.

If I got the best hand (which I'd assume with a7 4-way) I want all of my chips in pre-flop either taking the blinds or having the best chance to double up.

[drmcboy]

How far ahead can you be with A7? Even if you're 'dominating' you're splitting the pot pretty often. Stop and go here has the added benifit of folding out something like 88 that has YOU dominated, and you won't be splitting the pot with 88.

[daluchy]

Crap. I just looked at the hand again.

I swore I read it that he was the one who raised it pre-flop and the Op called and then bet the flop like a continuation bet Stop and Go. I was thinking why would he raise instead of just push pre-flop?

This is a textbook Stop and Go move other than not pushing the flop. My bad.

[dalecooper]

Textbook-ish but not perfect. Two things would help:
1. raise a little more pre-flop (make it 900 here). It ought to be at least 3xBB or a third to a half of your stack.
2. push the flop. Don't overthink it and don't get cute with a "normal" bet that leaves you some chips or whatever. It's not as powerful psychologically. Also don't insta-push; give it a couple of seconds, let it sink in with him that he has nothing, and then push. If he calls after that, there's nothing you can do; he either has something or he likes to gambool.

One more thought: I believe the stop and go is most effective when you are a legit short stack. If you have 2000 chips with a BB of 300 and everyone else has 4000+, bust out this move. You want two factors to make the move ideal: 1. you're clearly pot-committed and cannot fold after your pre-flop raise, so they won't raise you all in pre-flop on a bluff... more than likely they will just call with a decent hand; and 2. you have fewer chips than everyone, but enough chips to hurt your caller if you win and double through. You should have at least half as many chips as the person you're up against. If he has you covered by fifty million, he won't care about calling the all in.

Personally, I'd just push in this situation. The blinds are well worth stealing and if you get called you're probably in good shape against the majority of hands they would call with. Most importantly, your stack is the right size to put a serious hurt on anyone who called and lost, so swing for the fences and make them put their position in the money in jeopardy by just getting involved with you. I don't stop and go much, and I don't think this situation is perfect for it (especially considering how loose it turned out that your opponent was post-flop). Usually when it's late in an SnG and the blinds are high, my only pre-flop move is all-in. Unless I am the big stack, in which case I deliberately bet just enough to put any potential caller all in. Either way, you get maximum psychological effectivity out of the move.

[daluchy]

I like the Stop and Go or the push over pre-flop move here just about the same, but which is better when you have a loose opponent like the Op in this hand?

[dalecooper]

If you know they're loose, just push. The two keys with a loose player are first, not to make it affordable if your hand is vulnerable, and second, if they're going to call anyway, get the money in when you're pretty damn sure you're ahead.