What am I doing wrong? (long)

[Estrop]

So I started playing the $22 SnGs on party and at first, after about 100 to 150 of them I had a 89% ROI with a 45% ITM. I went up pretty fast to about $1040 in profit playing what I thought was pretty much perfect. Now at 384 SnGs I have a 1% ROI with a 36% ITM. At first I thought it was just varience and playing right it would pick up as I slowly dropped from 20% to 10% ROI then slowly down to 1%.
I think the way I am playing is good, I fold pretty much everything in the first 3 levels then I look for a spot to double up. I'm not pushing rags to steal the 150 chip blinds, I'm pushing hands like AK to TT. When I get really shortstacked, to about 4xBB I'll start to push more hands. A6, K9 etc just looking to steal blinds but a good enough hand so when the huge stack with QT calls me I'm a little ahead.
Once I'm ITM I'm really just looking to win hands, not stealing blinds unless I have to.

I don't know what I'm doing wrong, or if its just varience but a 40 buy in downswing is not something I've had before, but I know a few people have had them. I don't play perfectly but I'm sure I'm better then 1% ROI when varience levels.

Here are some hand histories, tell me if you spot anything bad:

No read on this guy, I pushed this to steal his blind really as I thought I was way ahead.

Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: JEstrop ( $925 )
Seat 5: ramyphil ( $3257 )
Seat 2: markcnc ( $1085 )
Seat 6: ibeam ( $405 )
Seat 8: dwaggs ( $785 )
Seat 9: NeverHasbeen ( $1543 )
Trny:15756141 Level:4
Blinds(50/100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to JEstrop [ Qc Ac ]
markcnc folds.
ramyphil folds.
ibeam folds.
dwaggs folds.
NeverHasbeen calls [50].
JEstrop is all-In [825]
NeverHasbeen calls [825].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8s, 5h, 8h ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2d ]
** Dealing River ** [ 4d ]
NeverHasbeen shows [ Kc, Kh ] two pairs, kings and eights.
JEstrop shows [ Qc, Ac ] a pair of eights.
NeverHasbeen wins 1850 chips from the main pot with two pairs, kings and eights.
JEstrop finished in sixth place.
JEstrop has left the table.

I have a lot of suituations like this. Getting to the bubble with a tiny stack. Should I of pushed here, both my cards were probably live

Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 2: golforejht71 ( $4485 )
Seat 7: arhz5 ( $2370 )
Seat 4: Estrop518 ( $500 )
Seat 10: sarejn ( $645 )
Trny:15756363 Level:4
Blinds(50/100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Estrop518 [ 9c 7s ]
sarejn raises [200].
golforejht71 folds.
Estrop518 folds.
arhz5 folds.
sarejn does not show cards.
sarejn wins 350 chips

The next few hands I was dealt huge rags until my BB hit. Did I have a choice here?

Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 2: golforejht71 ( $4410 )
Seat 7: arhz5 ( $2645 )
Seat 4: Estrop518 ( $300 )
Seat 10: sarejn ( $645 )
Trny:15756363 Level:5
Blinds(75/150)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Estrop518 [ 5h Qc ]
sarejn raises [300].
golforejht71 folds.
Estrop518 is all-In [225]
arhz5 folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qs, 2c, Ah ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 8c ]
** Dealing River ** [ 5d ]
>You have options at Table 13838 Table!.
sarejn shows [ As, Qh ] two pairs, aces and queens.
Estrop518 shows [ 5h, Qc ] two pairs, queens and fives.
sarejn wins 750 chips from the main pot with two pairs, aces and queens.
Estrop518 finished in fourth place.
nh
Estrop518 has left the table.

2xBB and hoping I had two live cards, would you call this?

Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 10: longballjy ( $1684 )
Seat 4: JEstrop ( $731 )
Seat 5: AA_Action ( $3414 )
Seat 2: Larisa03 ( $2171 )
Trny:15756138 Level:7
Blinds(150/300)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to JEstrop [ 9d 8c ]
AA_Action folds.
longballjy raises [600].
Larisa03 folds.
JEstrop is all-In [431]
longballjy calls [131].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4s, Qs, 2c ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Ad ]
** Dealing River ** [ 3d ]
longballjy shows [ Kh, Kd ] a pair of kings.
JEstrop shows [ 9d, 8c ] high card ace.
longballjy wins 1612 chips from the main pot with a pair of kings.
JEstrop finished in fourth place.
JEstrop has left the table.



Pushing when someone limps behind you, something I'm starting to learn to stop doing

Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 3: liquorking ( $1285 )
Seat 10: Estrop518 ( $650 )
Seat 5: The__Milkman ( $1570 )
Seat 8: trow28 ( $325 )
Seat 7: KNAVEofTARTs ( $2330 )
Seat 9: lpshea14 ( $1840 )
Trny:15731582 Level:5
Blinds(75/150)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Estrop518 [ Qh Th ]
The__Milkman folds.
KNAVEofTARTs folds.
trow28 folds.
lpshea14 calls [150].
Estrop518 is all-In [575]
liquorking folds.
lpshea14 calls [500].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2d, 5s, 7h ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 6d ]
** Dealing River ** [ 4h ]
Estrop518 shows [ Qh, Th ] high card queen.
lpshea14 shows [ Ad, Ks ] high card ace.
lpshea14 wins 1450 chips from the main pot with high card ace.
Estrop518 finished in sixth place.
Estrop518 has left the table.


Again, when people limp behind the shortstack that means they have something big most of the time, right?

Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 5: flyguy917 ( $1115 )
Seat 6: cmt1600 ( $990 )
Seat 7: kja9000 ( $2275 )
Seat 4: JEstrop ( $690 )
Seat 2: dusty1219 ( $2930 )
Trny:15731520 Level:5
Blinds(75/150)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to JEstrop [ 3h Ah ]
cmt1600 folds.
kja9000 folds.
dusty1219 calls [150].
JEstrop is all-In [615]
flyguy917 folds.
dusty1219 calls [540].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8h, Kc, Js ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 6s ]
** Dealing River ** [ 8d ]
JEstrop shows [ 3h, Ah ] a pair of eights.
dusty1219 shows [ Ks, Kd ] a full house, Kings full of eights.
dusty1219 wins 1530 chips from the main pot with a full house, Kings full of eights.
JEstrop finished in fifth place.
JEstrop has left the table.


Bad place to steal or just bad luck?

Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: JUSTGOIN ( $1645 )
Seat 2: JEstrop ( $600 )
Seat 5: SnakeJP ( $2425 )
Seat 10: brodway ( $3330 )
Trny:15727630 Level:6
Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to JEstrop [ Tc Qh ]
JUSTGOIN folds.
JEstrop is all-In [600]
SnakeJP folds.
brodway calls [400].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 9h, 4c, Kh ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5s ]
** Dealing River ** [ 4d ]
brodway shows [ Kc, 9c ] two pairs, kings and nines.
JEstrop shows [ Tc, Qh ] a pair of fours.
brodway wins 1300 chips from the main pot with two pairs, kings and nines.
JEstrop finished in fourth place.
JEstrop has left the table.

Just bad luck?

Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 3
Seat 4: trickypbt ( $3985 )
Seat 6: ballsmagoo ( $2450 )
Seat 10: Estrop518 ( $1565 )
Trny:15705624 Level:6
Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Estrop518 [ 4h Ac ]
trickypbt calls [200].
ballsmagoo calls [100].
Estrop518 is all-In [1365]
trickypbt calls [1365].
ballsmagoo folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3h, Qd, 9d ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 6c ]
** Dealing River ** [ Jc ]
>You have options at Table 14981 Table!.
trickypbt shows [ Jh, 8h ] a pair of jacks.
Estrop518 shows [ 4h, Ac ] high card ace.
trickypbt wins 3330 chips from the main pot with a pair of jacks.
Estrop518 finished in third place and won $40.
Estrop518 has left the table.

Just bad luck again?

Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 3
Seat 2: StneColdCall ( $4180 )
Seat 3: Estrop518 ( $1320 )
Seat 10: STUCKINLODI ( $2500 )
Trny:15705085 Level:8
Blinds(200/400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Estrop518 [ 7d Ah ]
StneColdCall folds.
Estrop518 is all-In [1120]
STUCKINLODI calls [920].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2d, 6s, 6d ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Jc ]
** Dealing River ** [ 4h ]
Estrop518 shows [ 7d, Ah ] a pair of sixes.
STUCKINLODI shows [ Ad, Tc ] a pair of sixes.
STUCKINLODI wins 2640 chips from the main pot with a pair of sixes with ten kicker.
Estrop518 finished in third place and won $40.
Estrop518 has left the table.

Got to call this right?

Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 3
Seat 4: Estrop518 ( $2640 )
Seat 7: Chan_nairb ( $2516 )
Seat 9: plplingfl ( $2844 )
Trny:15703914 Level:7
Blinds(150/300)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Estrop518 [ As Qc ]
Chan_nairb is all-In [2516]
plplingfl folds.
Estrop518 calls [2216].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Kh, 8s, 4h ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 7h ]
** Dealing River ** [ 2d ]
Chan_nairb shows [ Ah, 4d ] a pair of fours.
Estrop518 shows [ As, Qc ] high card ace.
Chan_nairb wins 5182 chips from the main pot with a pair of fours.

Good call?

Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 3: Sovjet_Star ( $2145 )
Seat 4: JEstrop ( $970 )
Seat 6: Flight_93 ( $2445 )
Seat 8: Threeputt04 ( $2440 )
Trny:15701647 Level:5
Blinds(75/150)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to JEstrop [ 6s 6c ]
Flight_93 folds.
Threeputt04 folds.
Sovjet_Star is all-In [2070]
JEstrop is all-In [820]
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ks, Qs, 8d ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 8h ]
** Dealing River ** [ Qc ]
Sovjet_Star shows [ Qd, Ad ] a full house, Queens full of eights.
JEstrop shows [ 6s, 6c ] two pairs, queens and eights.
Sovjet_Star wins 1175 chips from side pot #1 with a full house, Queens full of eights.
Sovjet_Star wins 1940 chips from the main pot with a full house, Queens full of eights.
JEstrop finished in fourth place.
JEstrop has left the table.

Unlucky or bad time to push?

Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 1: HuckinFusker ( $2180 )
Seat 2: machineshop ( $645 )
Seat 3: Hesonite ( $1140 )
Seat 4: Ashman4Prez ( $690 )
Seat 5: Estrop518 ( $650 )
Seat 7: u_dubl_me_up ( $2125 )
Seat 10: JamesT226 ( $570 )
Trny:15700804 Level:4
Blinds(50/100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Estrop518 [ Qc As ]
Hesonite folds.
Ashman4Prez folds.
Estrop518 is all-In [650]
u_dubl_me_up folds.
JamesT226 folds.
HuckinFusker calls [600].
machineshop folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2h, 7h, 8h ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 4h ]
** Dealing River ** [ 2c ]
HuckinFusker shows [ Ad, Ah ] a flush, ace high.
Estrop518 shows [ Qc, As ] a pair of twos.
HuckinFusker wins 1400 chips from the main pot with a flush, ace high.
Estrop518 finished in seventh place.
Estrop518 has left the table.

Bad call?

Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 1: larryjoeowen ( $2715 )
Seat 3: gauntlet05 ( $2670 )
Seat 4: JEstrop ( $740 )
Seat 5: Kyblindside ( $1075 )
Seat 10: hotdogjax ( $800 )
Trny:15699041 Level:6
Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to JEstrop [ Td Ts ]
hotdogjax is all-In [800]
larryjoeowen folds.
gauntlet05 folds.
JEstrop is all-In [640]
Kyblindside folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5c, 9d, 4s ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Js ]
** Dealing River ** [ 2s ]
hotdogjax shows [ Jc, Qc ] a pair of jacks.
JEstrop shows [ Td, Ts ] a pair of tens.
hotdogjax wins 60 chips from side pot #1 with a pair of jacks.
hotdogjax wins 1680 chips from the main pot with a pair of jacks.
JEstrop finished in fifth place.
JEstrop has left the table.

Sure I was ahead, but is this a good call?

Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 3
Seat 2: gel1681 ( $1350 )
Seat 5: mpokerw ( $4850 )
Seat 9: JEstrop ( $1800 )
Trny:15697945 Level:10
Blinds(300/600)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to JEstrop [ Ah 8d ]
gel1681 folds.
mpokerw raises [1900].
JEstrop is all-In [1200]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4d, 6d, 6h ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Qd ]
** Dealing River ** [ 4h ]
mpokerw shows [ Ac, 4c ] a full house, Fours full of sixes.
JEstrop shows [ Ah, 8d ] two pairs, sixes and fours.
mpokerw wins 400 chips from side pot #1 with a full house, Fours full of sixes.
mpokerw wins 3600 chips from the main pot with a full house, Fours full of sixes.
JEstrop finished in third place and won $40.
JEstrop has left the table.

With pretty level stacks should I steal here?

Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 3
Seat 4: simon10 ( $2075 )
Seat 5: Estrop518 ( $1985 )
Seat 2: ceb324 ( $3940 )
Trny:15678810 Level:5
Blinds(75/150)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Estrop518 [ 3s 3d ]
simon10 folds.
Estrop518 is all-In [1910]
ceb324 calls [1835].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 7d, 7s, Td ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Jc ]
** Dealing River ** [ Ac ]
Estrop518 shows [ 3s, 3d ] two pairs, sevens and threes.
ceb324 shows [ Qh, Qc ] two pairs, queens and sevens.
ceb324 wins 3970 chips from the main pot with two pairs, queens and sevens.
Estrop518 finished in third place and won $40.
Estrop518 has left the table.


Got to think AQ is good here right?

Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 3
Seat 6: jimylove ( $2775 )
Seat 7: Estrop518 ( $1715 )
Seat 10: TwinklePS ( $3510 )
Trny:15675560 Level:7
Blinds(150/300)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Estrop518 [ Ah Qc ]
jimylove raises [600].
Estrop518 is all-In [1565]
TwinklePS calls [1415].
jimylove is all-In [2175]
TwinklePS calls [1060].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Td, 8s, 7d ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5d ]
** Dealing River ** [ 8h ]
jimylove shows [ Kh, Kd ] two pairs, kings and eights.
Estrop518 shows [ Ah, Qc ] a pair of eights.
TwinklePS shows [ Ac, 8c ] three of a kind, eights.
TwinklePS wins 2120 chips from side pot #1 with three of a kind, eights.
TwinklePS wins 5145 chips from the main pot with three of a kind, eights.
Estrop518 finished in third place and won $40.
jimylove finished in second place and won $60.
jimylove has left the table.
Estrop518 has left the table.
Congratulations,TwinklePS! You won $100.
TwinklePS has left the table.


After looking through a lot of hand histories, I'm really just seeing bad beats or time when I just don't have any cards to at least try to steal with or to try and double up with. Maybe I'm just running really bad.

[Estrop]

[PokerPatNEU]

I haven't read all the HH's yet, but just reading your opening paragraph i can comment on a few things.

When I get really shortstacked, to about 4xBB I'll start to push more hands.

You have to be ready to open up your push range and push way more marginal hands long before 4x BB. At this point you're stack is so small, you'll be lucky if pushing will even earn you just 1 caller instead of 2 or 3. Being at 4x BB you are at mission critical, time to push almost any hand that has a card higher than a Q in it, anything suited, any 2-3 gappers or better offsuit, any pair from 22 up....You're push range should be like over 50% of hands at this point. You are crippled. Don't let yourself get to here, start looking for a spot to push when you're at 8-10x BB, and you're push still will raise some eyebrows and have some fold equity.

Once I'm ITM I'm really just looking to win hands, not stealing blinds unless I have to.

Once you're ITM the big blind is coming around every 3rd hand. If you arent looking to steal, you are going to lose a lot of your stack in only a few orbits. If you are in the SB and the button folds, try and steal the BB with any decent hand. From the button steal both blinds with a good amount of hands too, hands that have value still if the blinds call and you can play them from position. You NEED to pick up blinds late in tournaments to keep your stack even. If you wait for hands that are winners and play them strait up, you aren't going to have a lot of chips to play those hands out with by the time they come around.


I will probably read the HH's and post on them some time this afternoon, work is sloooow today

[a500lbgorilla]

It's clear that you need to completely revamp your Bubble/ITM/HU strategy.

More to come in a jiffy.

-'rilla

[a500lbgorilla]

You are demonstrating a complete lack of understanding with how the bubble works.

You're supposed to start pushing rags when you hit 10BB, you wait til 4 before you go into desperation mode. The problem with this is you're pushing only good hands when you have the most folding equity (which is really kinda backwards from an ideal sng) And you're pushing crap when you've got little to no folding equity. Every blind you steal 4 handed is physically putting money in your pocket. Everytime you pass on the button with 8bb and A7o, you are pissing money away.

I believe that this horribly crippling 'survive just a little longer" strategy is why you see you have so few first places. Your strategy is basically just trying to limp ITM and hope 3rd busts before you so you can make 2nd place money.

I have no idea how in the whole wide world you pulled off those numbers over your first 150 sngs with this strategy, but you should count yourself lucky that you're still +ROI after 400 becuase you have some MAJOR leaks on the bubble/ITM/HU

-'rilla

[JeffreyGB]

'Rilla mentioned it, but I'm going to emphasize, as I'd make the argument that it's perhaps the most important factor in all tournament play (IMHO): Folding Equity.

You need to start making moves when you have enough chips to cause people to fold. Pushing for 4bb means nothing to the other players at the table. If you start pushing when you have 10bb, for instance, you're much more likely to be getting folds and you can build a respectable stack through those folds. Relating back to the M that rilla hates:

(M = ratio of your stack to the size of the starting pot), an M of 5 or less puts you in position to push with any 2, given the right spot. To give some numbers to that:
If the BB is 200 and your stack is 1.5k, then the starting pot is 200 + 100 = 300. Your M is 1500/300 = 5. Any chance you get, you want to push a GOOD opportunity. If you don't want to mess with the M calculations, 10bb is a pretty good approximation as well - though the biggest problem I see is that it ignores antes (which can become a significant factor). Once your stack gets really short, you're no longer trying to steal. You're trying to find a spot to double-up. You should be looking for a place to go in with the best hand if at all possible. Don't come over the top with a hand that is behind a majority of other hands. Players have good odds to call you just from having the blinds invested; the raiser basically can't fold.

I talked a lot about looking for a good opportunity. Here's what I meant: You want to find a situation in which the players before you limp or fold. You do not want to push mediocre cards into a raise, unless the player has been raising every hand AND you have substantially more than they raised. To (mis)quote soupie: You're better off pushing 72o when it's folded to you on the button than ATs facing a raise.

Let me repeat part of that, since I saw it a number of times in those histories: Do not push with any two into a raise, especially if you have a really small stack. The only possible exception to this is if you have a very strong read (like someone raising every hand).

[Trikflow77]

You are demonstrating a complete lack of understanding with how the bubble works.

You're supposed to start pushing rags when you hit 10BB, you wait til 4 before you go into desperation mode. The problem with this is you're pushing only good hands when you have the most folding equity (which is really kinda backwards from an ideal sng) And you're pushing crap when you've got little to no folding equity. Every blind you steal 4 handed is physically putting money in your pocket. Everytime you pass on the button with 8bb and A7o, you are pissing money away.

I believe that this horribly crippling 'survive just a little longer" strategy is why you see you have so few first places. Your strategy is basically just trying to limp ITM and hope 3rd busts before you so you can make 2nd place money.

I have no idea how in the whole wide world you pulled off those numbers over your first 150 sngs with this strategy, but you should count yourself lucky that you're still +ROI after 400 becuase you have some MAJOR leaks on the bubble/ITM/HU

-'rilla

SHIP IT.........

[Estrop]

Thanks for the replies, this makes a lot of sense. Why I was fixed on a 5xbb is what I should be sitting on at the bubble is unbeknown to me. I was nearly playing right although I think my biggest problem was the 50/100 level.

I think I ran so good through my first 150 because I was pretty lucky and I was playing better. Just recently with bad luck and bad play together it doesn't go well. I'll keep trying, although I've never lost this much playing poker.

As I have been playing only good hands around the bubble, there are still times when I do have a stack on the bubble or when I'm ITM and I'm in the biggest downswing I've ever had, maybe being 3 outed 5 times in an hour is making me not want to push as much because I just feel so unlucky.

[Demiparadigm]

I looked through about half the hand histories... and none of them look wrong at all.
The point is, as others have stated, thatthey are not wrong because you are so short stacked.
Where your leaks lie is in whatever is getting you so short stacked.
The point of an SnG is not to slowly leak off your chips until you hopefully make the money, then push when you can't cover the blinds.
Be constantly searching for places to pick up chips.. EVEN in the first three levels!
You also need to learn to play post flop. Pushing preflop may make a profit, but the real money is in first.
You can't make 1st place by folding and pushing (you can, but not as often as you should)
Notice, there are 10 players in a Party SnG. If everything were random, you would have 10% 1st place finishes (and 10% of each of the others)
YOUR 1st place finishes are less than random distribution!
Congratulations on being profitable... but re-read the above posts, and look for more places to get your money in with the best of it.
You'll have a lot more 7,8,9 place finishes... but that gives you more time to start another SnG and take 1st!
Why fold into 4th place when you can try and double up in 9th for the same money?