Button push against similarly stacked blinds?

[rubixstreub]

Push or Fold?

Seat 1: streubie [4C,KH] ($1,285 in chips)
Seat 3: T.J.C. ($1,395 in chips)
Seat 5: trilligy ($1,385 in chips)
Seat 6: JJJJJAYSCOTT ($1,875 in chips)
Seat 9: SuzyQZ11 ($4,790 in chips)
Seat 10: WhyAm I Here ($4,270 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
T.J.C. posts blind ($100), trilligy posts blind ($200).

PRE-FLOP
JJJJJAYSCOTT folds, SuzyQZ11 folds, WhyAm I Here folds, streubie???

I want to stop questioning this, but I never know what to do when it's folded to me on the button, the blinds and I are all similarly short-stacked. I haven't been doing much stealing and haven't played out a hand all tourney. Is this an almost push any two situation?

[Fnord]

I would make it 500 flat planning to push on any flop.

[rubixstreub]

I would make it 500 flat planning to push on any flop.

You think someone of those stack sizes would call more often then just pushing over?

[Fnord]

It gives you more ways to win and represents a stronger hand than just pushing.

[vqc]

I push.

[daluchy]

I usually just push it, but I may give Fnord's method a try sometime soon to see how it goes.

[gabe]

i push

It gives you more ways to win and represents a stronger hand than just pusing.

It also gives you more ways to lose.

[Demiparadigm]

It gives you more ways to win and represents a stronger hand than just pusing.

It also gives you more ways to lose.

Nah.
You lose when you get called and show down a worse hand.
This gives you 2 chances to not get called.
What hand do you think the BB would call 500 and not 1000 with?
Then, how often does he call a push on the flop with this range?

[Fnord]

Against thinking players the raise to 500 represents more strength than a push as you're suggesting you want a call here. He might out-think himself and laydown a wider range (perhaps even A-rag or a really small pocket pair.) By pushing on the flop you take advantage of the fact most hands miss horribly. Bad players will call with crap and fold when they miss. Better players might still call and find a way not to like the flop. Just don't do this play too often, as after the 2nd time or so you pull it off at the table they figure out what you're up to.

[konahead]

I fold. K4o really sucks.

[drmcboy]

Think less about your cards, and more about your stack.

[gabe]

Against thinking players the raise to 500 represents more strength than a push as you're suggesting you want a call here. He might out-think himself and laydown a wider range (perhaps even A-rag or a really small pocket pair.) By pushing on the flop you take advantage of the fact most hands miss horribly. Bad players will call with crap and fold when they miss. Better players might still call and find a way not to like the flop. Just don't do this play too often, as after the 2nd time or so you pull it off at the table they figure out what you're up to.

do you call a push preflop after you put 500 out there?

[PokerPatNEU]

I like Fnords line. Pushing from the button here is so expected you will get called down by other very marginal hands like Ax who know you are on a steal and probably figure they have the best hand. Who is going to come over the top of you if you raise to half your stack? Everyone knows you'll call. It makes your hand seem stronger than it is, increasing your fold equity. I think i'm gonna start using this more.

[drmcboy]

to Gabe's point, the negative of not pushing is you open yourself to the stop n go. If you're calling any flop OK, if not push is better.

[PokerPatNEU]

to Gabe's point, the negative of not pushing is you open yourself to the stop n go. If you're calling any flop OK, if not push is better.

Even opening yourself to the stop and go you have either more ways to win or the same amount, never less. Unless you think the fold equity you get from pushing pre flop is substantially more than just raising to half your stack, but i think you're just about as likely to get a fold from either raise.

If you raise to 500 pre flop with the intention to push:
Opponent can call then check/fold.
Opponent can call then push.
Opponent can fold.

If you raise all in pre flop:
Opponent can call.
Opponent can fold.

If he calls then pushes, you are in the same situation you would have been in if you had just pushed pre flop and he called. And since he's only calling this raise with the same hands he'd call a push with (we assume), you aren't losing anything by raising to half your stack, only gaining the posibility that he will fold the flop where he wouldn't be able to fold otherwise if you had just pushed pre flop.

[Aquinas]

Fnords thoughts in action:
4 players 215 sng blinds 400
Hero 4550
Button 2950
SB 1295.6
BB 1204.3
SB posts 200
BB posts 400
Hero [Ad4h] raises to 1000
Button folds
SB folds
BB calls
Flop is 7c 8c 9c
BB checks
Hero pushes
BB folds !!!!!!
lol
Funny thing is he managed to get 2nd place when I pushed next hand with 66 and got called by both the others (they had AQ and AJ). _Talk about reinforcing a horrible play.

[drmcboy]

And since he's only calling this raise with the same hands he'd call a push with (we assume),

?

If the push doesn't narrow the calling range, obviously you don't push. Seems like a pretty big assumption to me. To me this is a table read play. If the SS have been mostly just pushing, I like a raise better, if the SS have been raising, I like the push better.

[PokerPatNEU]

Well I just assume any hand strong enough to call a raise that big where the raiser is obviously pot commited and not folding at this point would also be calling a push. I don't think the calling range is much different between the raise to 500 and the all in for 1200.

[drmcboy]

smart players, I agree, the higher the buy in the better for this play. Also don't forget the BB is getting a pretty good price to call here. Finally, good players like the stop and go, so where as A6 may have folded to a push, he may SnG your raise.

[dalecooper]

I mix it up between Fnord's play and just pushing, and even throw in an occasional fold if I know one or both blinds are loose (although they usually won't be in the late stages of a tournament). It is largely about reads. Some plays work against certain people more than others. Just pushing probably does narrow the range of calling hands at least somewhat, so there's an argument to be made for it. Also, I prefer to stop-n-go when I'm out of position; that way there's no chance of the other player pre-emptively pushing on me and forcing me to call (or maybe even fold, on some rare occasions) with a crap hand. Part of giving yourself more ways to win means that you'll have the opportunity to gain that fold equity; being first to act after the flop ensures it.

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about: say I raise with this hand, K4o, from the button and get a call from the BB, a thinking player who holds J9 suited. The flop comes A93 rainbow. BB pushes with a pair of nines; now I face a dilemma with really no draw to speak of, yet I'm too short-stacked to survive for long if I fold. Most of the time I have to call and hope to suck out. Occasionally if I have enough chips, I may lay it down - but then I'm pushing a hand or two later just to try to get back where I was before I made this move. Now take the parallel universe example where I make the same move from the SB and the BB calls. He flops nines but I push. He looks at the ace, looks at his second pair/mediocre kicker, and decides to let it go. The move is maximally effective.

Obviously the scenarios are not that common where the other player would flop something good enough to put you all in (from early position) but questionable enough to fold if you pushed first. But it's an edge, regardless. That's why I stop and go more from the early seats than the cutoff or the button. As a blind war move it's highly effective, as long as the flop doesn't hit them right between the eyes. If you just push over the big blind with any two, you might get called by any two - especially if he has you covered by a lot. But the stop and go gives him more to think about.

[jdubs]

I would make it 500 flat planning to push on any flop.

I am going to try this... I like the idea- it does make your hand look stronger than just pushing!

[PokerPatNEU]

I really want to read dale's post but the zombie is freaking me out

[a500lbgorilla]

I push.

Fnord's line is just too fancy for my low limit sng tastes becuase the hand gets real ugly if they push over.

-'rilla