JJ vs. Ace on turn

[Borax]

10+1$ SnG just started with 10 players
Blinds 20/10 and all stacks are close to 1000
Hero limps from UTG with

UTG+1 miniraises to 40
4 more callers makes the pot 220$ so Hero check-raise for 200$ more
UTG+1 thinks hard and then calls
4 folds
pot now 640$
FLOP:

Hero likes the flop and bets 350$
UTG+1 thinks hard again and calls
TURN
:Ad:
Hero
(Stacks left are Hero: 450$ and UTG+1: 380$)

Read on UTG+1: He miniraises anything at early levels for some reason. He will chase a draw all the way, even inside straight draws = fish. Sometimes he becomes overaggressive with medium to poor hands.

Also, should I have pushed the flop? I put him on a straight draw and would have called a reraise push since I knew he could have called my preflop raise with almost anything.

[taipan168]

It's a difficult one. Even though UTG+1 is a calling station you would have thought that the fact that he called your huge pre-flop raise means that he has at least something half decent, but the range of hands for a player like this is pretty broad - could be a pocket pair lower than TT but not 99/44, A-x, KQ, QJ, KJ...I would have thought that AA, KK and QQ would be an instacall/reraise to your big raise.

I think I would have pushed the flop with this as you're better off taking the pot now rather than risk him hitting a straight draw or pairing an A, K or Q. If you don't think he has AA, KK or QQ I think there's no reason for you to believe that you don't have the best hand with the flop all undercards.

As played, at this point you're pretty much pot committed, so although I think there's some chance that you're beaten, I would push the turn. You never know, the A could be as much a scare card for him as it is for you.

Am I missing the boat here?

[salsa4ever]

I concur.

It's hard, but I think you have to push.

If you check/call, he will probably push with anything and you have to call cos you're committed and he could have anything from middle pair... but with a draw he could check behind and possibly fold the river if he misses.

I would have liked to see a bigger flop bet like 3/4 pot... actually, your bet probably did what it should have done - it pulled him along and it got us pot comitted. If he hit his card on the turn that's just a bad beat... he already made a horrendous mistake by calling the flop

[Borax]

Is it just my computer, or is there something wrong with the card images in my post?

Yes, I think it would have been better to push the flop. But with my read I really thought I had the best hand and was going for his stack, so I wanted a call or a reraisebluff. Maybe seeing how it turned out, I should learn to keep it simple and be happy with an already nice pot.

What happened:
Hero push for 450$
UTG+1 calls and shows


The river didn't help me and I was out in 10'th place.

[rubixstreub]

Is it just my computer, or is there something wrong with the card images in my post?.

Yep, I can only see your TT.

[gabe]

you really should have pushed on the flop with a small stack and a big pot

[drmcboy]

even if you're sure you have the best hand, you have to assume he has either two overs, or an over and some sort of draw to the str8. Your bet makes it correct for him to call with any of those hands.

[Borax]

even if you're sure you have the best hand, you have to assume he has either two overs, or an over and some sort of draw to the str8. Your bet makes it correct for him to call with any of those hands.

to call 350$ to a 990$ pot he gets 990/350= 2.8
AKo= 23.5%
AKs = 27.8%
KQs = 32.3 %
87s = 26.7%
QJs = 43.4%

I ruled out QJ as less likely due to my two J's
so he's got 23-32% = 4.3 - 3.1 odds and he needed 2.8 odds
It seems to me that he shouldn't call with anything but KQ.
Still, I aggree that I should have pushed.

[drmcboy]

Roll in the chance that you're bluffing (say 10 %) and the calls look better. HE doesn't know you have anything.

It's almost too weird of a hand to analyze, because anyone with half a brain folds A3 here pre flop after getting re raised by a limper. Realistically anyone who would min raise, then call a re raise like that has you beat on that flop.

[TLR]

You had to push the flop, your bet made you pot comitted and you dont have that great of a hand to take the extra risk.

At the turn you are pot comitted and have to push.

I have a hard time believing he called your raise with any 2 overs. I think that AA, KK, QQ, AT he would reraise you on the flop.

He either has QJ or your ran into a set

[Borax]

You had to push the flop, your bet made you pot comitted and you dont have that great of a hand to take the extra risk.

At the turn you are pot comitted and have to push.

I have a hard time believing he called your raise with any 2 overs. I think that AA, KK, QQ, AT he would reraise you on the flop.

He either has QJ or your ran into a set

He had A3

(Why are my card symbols not working suddenly?)

[TLR]

If he had A3 he is a total fish.

But at that time (on the turn) you have to deduct what he can logically haev, and A3 was nowhere on my list of possible hands

[PokerPatNEU]

I'll put a fish/calling station on Ax there at these limits. And it's been said in this thread already but i'll say it again, against a calling station you have to push the flop when you are fairly certain your hand is good. You can't give bad odds for someone holding overs or a strait draw without pot commiting yourself. You don't want to fold this on the turn or river if a scare card hits like A or K. The pot is substantial for you to take down at this point with your stack it's a huge boost for you and you're hand is probably best.

By the turn you have to think you're beat. Either by a good player with a set, or a fish with AT/A9 or something. Or a super fish with A3...Doh . Lots of scare cards could fall for you holding an over pair on that flop, any Q, K, A, 8, J, another T another 9...Push it while you're over pair is in the lead so you don't have to make a really difficult decision on the turn/river out of position.

[a500lbgorilla]

Hero made 2 mistakes in this hand.

The limp-raise preflop becuase I've seen AA minraise early too frequently to think a minraise is always ness.

Not just pushing an unders flop. Op will likely push better hands preflop and if you open push you give your opponent a chance to make a bad call (which they sometimes like to do)

-'rilla

[very_sneaky]

theres no such thing as being pot committed on the first hand.. u can always get out of a hand this early.. pot comitted is for later stages of a tournament play with high blinds.. even if he gets out on turn and make sa check he still has 500 with small ass blinds i can take those chances when i know im beat ..

[A10Chief]

Why didn't you open the pot w/ a raise? Even with JJ UTG, at least when you raise, you can define the opp. hand a little better. I think that's where you lost this one. Also, definitely push this hand after the flop. If you lose to hidden set or pocket overpair, well, that's poker. You gave this hand away.

[Borax]

Why didn't you open the pot w/ a raise? Even with JJ UTG, at least when you raise, you can define the opp. hand a little better. I think that's where you lost this one. Also, definitely push this hand after the flop. If you lose to hidden set or pocket overpair, well, that's poker. You gave this hand away.

Why didn't I open with a raise? I will raise from UTG with JJ quite often, but I will vary my play (ref. HOH2). I would sometimes raise, sometimes limp raise and sometimes just call the miniraise. Here I limpraised the size of the pot and folded 4 out of five players before the flop and was left with a fishy player. I think that defined the opp. quite well. I am very pleased with the effects I've seen from variation to my preflop play and it will be hard to convince me to go back to raising in a predictable way.

I understand know that I should have pushed the flop and it is an interesting and good point that I could have kept almost half my stack when the Ace hit, although that would be a hard lay down. However, I do not see that the limp raise is wrong from UTG in this hand. With 4 miniraise limpers and one fishy miniraiser I would be happy to get hands such as AT, KQ, KT, QT, Ax etc. to fold before the flop as the pot is already nice. If I play scared to possible AA-limpers my game would get very passive. Remember that the others must consider me holding AA as well.

[A10Chief]

Good point. You do need to vary your play. However, I think raising this particular hand would have chased the A3. Maybe not. By limping, you let a player in position make an aggressive play on you. It backfired. Now if this guy calls your open raise with A3 and draws out then you have a complaint. Vary your play by limping AA, KK, AK. Limping JJ is a recipe for disaster. But don't take me the wrong way, it still sucks that you lost to a fish playing A3 like it was the nuts.

[Borax]

ok, point take, but I have to add that I did not see this guys miniraise from 20 to 40 as aggression, and the others limped his miniraise as usual because he did it all the time.

[drmcboy]

limping JJ to set first couple levels is fine.