Good AI call or bad?

[jstrope]

I don't make a habit of calling AI's on the flop with low top pair/top kicker, but I smelled a rat on this. Should I have called this?

*********** # 51 **************
PokerStars Game #2631678998: Tournament #12861108, Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2005/09/21 - 23:21:06 (ET)
Table '12861108 2' Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: stunna407 (2460 in chips)
Seat 2: Bowl4Ebonite (2325 in chips)
Seat 3: bwiggs (2810 in chips)
Seat 4: jstrope (3870 in chips) *
Seat 5: Lolita18 (2080 in chips)
Seat 6: BubblngCrude (5390 in chips)
Seat 7: Papa$Change (2640 in chips)
Seat 8: hossdboss (4820 in chips)
Seat 9: mvlac (605 in chips)
bwiggs: posts small blind 75
jstrope: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to jstrope [8c As]
Lolita18: folds
BubblngCrude: folds
Papa$Change: folds
hossdboss: calls 150
mvlac: folds
stunna407: calls 150
Bowl4Ebonite: folds
bwiggs: calls 75
jstrope: checks
*** FLOP *** [4s 8s 6h]
bwiggs: bets 450
jstrope: raises 900 to 1350
hossdboss: folds
stunna407: folds
bwiggs: raises 1310 to 2660 and is all-in
jstrope: calls 1310
*** TURN *** [4s 8s 6h] [4d]
*** RIVER *** [4s 8s 6h 4d] [2d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***

[Khabbi]

I'm not making this call. You have no information other than the fact that you raised and got re-raised. This tends to be a signal that you are beat.

The only way for you to take this pot, would be if villain was playing a top pair with crappy kicker.

He's probably limping a pair, maybe 9's or 10's. If he's lose he could be playing any two, so you are looking at a well hidden straight or at least two pair.

I just don't see the point in making that call against the 2nd biggest chip stack when you have such a great position. Wait until you are in command of the hand. You want them to be calling you for their chips, not the other way around.

[taipan168]

Bad call in my opinion. There are so many hands that could have you beat, particularly since your opponent was in the small blind and completed, as I would have done with virtually any two cards since I'm getting 7:1 odds on the call (assuming you as the BB don't raise). My guess is his most likely hand is two pair or 57 for a made straight; trips is also a possibility.

On the flop, I think your reraise is a reasonable move to find out what he's got. However, once he re-reraises you all-in, it's time to get outta there. You've got the information you wanted from your reraise - you're beat. If you don't call the all-in, so the hand costs you 1500 chips - you've still got around 2300 which isn't quite desperation levels at these blinds. I would have picked a better spot than this.

[jstrope]

I'm not making this call. You have no information other than the fact that you raised and got re-raised. This tends to be a signal that you are beat.

The only way for you to take this pot, would be if villain was playing a top pair with crappy kicker.

He's probably limping a pair, maybe 9's or 10's. If he's lose he could be playing any two, so you are looking at a well hidden straight or at least two pair.

I just don't see the point in making that call against the 2nd biggest chip stack when you have such a great position. Wait until you are in command of the hand. You want them to be calling you for their chips, not the other way around.

I ruled out 9's and 10's preflop. He had raised 9's UTG+1 earlier (which he proceeded to quad). My only real concern was p4's or p6's, but I think he would have slowed down on the flop if he'd hit a set.

He had been mostly min-betting his made hands and overbetting his marginal ones up until that point.

[drmcboy]

but I think he would have slowed down on the flop if he'd hit a set.

On that board? eh.

If you're ahead, it's probably against something like 87, I can't see this play with a weaker 8 than you have with no draw.

Mostly I'm folding to the re raise... I try not to go broke with TPTK in an unrasied pot.

[jstrope]

You've got the information you wanted from your reraise - you're beat.

This is what concerned me. I raised for that exact reason, but refused to listen.

The call worked out, and I eventually won the SNG (10+1 on Stars), but in reviewing the HH this morning this call really stuck out as a lucky escape.

bwiggs: shows [8h Jc] (two pair, Eights and Fours)
jstrope: shows [8c As] (two pair, Eights and Fours - Ace kicker)
jstrope collected 5920 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 5920 | Rake 0
Board [4s 8s 6h 4d 2d]
Seat 1: stunna407 folded on the Flop
Seat 2: Bowl4Ebonite (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: bwiggs (small blind) showed [8h Jc] and lost with two pair, Eights and Fours
Seat 4: jstrope (big blind) showed [8c As] and won (5920) with two pair, Eights and Fours
Seat 5: Lolita18 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: BubblngCrude folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Papa$Change folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: hossdboss folded on the Flop
Seat 9: mvlac folded before Flop (didn't bet)

[Khabbi]

I'm assuming that you wouldn't be playing this hand unless you were in the BB. In this situation you are in the BB so you got to see a flop.

This is usually pretty easy for me to let go after seeing people limp in. There will be better spots, you have only lost your blind so far. I would have been hard pressed to put in a bet on the flop, let alone a raise.

You have no control of the hand and no read and no information. After your raise, which was a pretty good raise, you got re-raised. I'd surely be letting this go at this point since I wouldn't have felt comfortable with the hand at any point.

[jstrope]

[quote="khabbi"]I'm assuming that you wouldn't be playing this hand unless you were in the BB. In this situation you are in the BB so you got to see a flop.[/qoute]

No, A8o is not something I'd be playing at a full table unless it's stealing the blinds or just trying to get cute with a bluff.

However, this begs the question of how you play marginal hands like this from the BB in an unraised pot with a bunch of limpers. To me, I got the exact flop I wanted here (short of 2p) and taking down the pot right there adds 15% to my stack. Obviously, I really don't want to see the next 2 cards here, so should I have pushed the flop if bwiggs hadn't bet?

Or should a hand like A8 from the BB simply be considered a loss regardless of a miracle flop like A8x or A88?

[Khabbi]

I'm not the most experienced player on here by a long shot but I would check/fold the flop. Maybe this play is too weak? But you've got plenty of time to look for a situation in which you are in control.

I'm just not comfortable with this situation. Anything short of two pair in the BB against several limpers is just too hard. You are out of position, you have no control and you have no information.

After the re-raise you only have information telling you to fold. I would definately be listening to those signals.

Maybe we can get someone else to comment.

[jstrope]

I'm not the most experienced player on here by a long shot but I would check/fold the flop. Maybe this play is too weak? But you've got plenty of time to look for a situation in which you are in control.

I'm just not comfortable with this situation. Anything short of two pair in the BB against several limpers is just too hard. You are out of position, you have no control and you have no information.

After the re-raise you only have information telling you to fold. I would definately be listening to those signals.

Maybe we can get someone else to comment.

I think ignoring the flop is bad here (too weak), but ignoring the re-raise was worse. I would definitely bet LTPTK heavy everytime looking to take it down right there, but getting married to it is an obvious mistake that I just happened to get away with here.

[kingnat]

I would definitely bet LTPTK heavy everytime looking to take it down right there, but getting married to it is an obvious mistake that I just happened to get away with here.

Exactly what I was thinking. Great play up until the AI call.

[Fortune 500]

I love the reraise, here. It's an informative bet. You lucked out with an opponent that will overbet weaker hands than you, but make this call too often and you'll regret it. Nice reraise, but I lay it down when he comes over top of me.

[Staple Gun]

I play it the same way at the $10 level. Only thing I though he might have aside from a weaker 8 was 4-6.

[JeffreyGB]

You said that he overbet marginal hands and minbet strong hands. Because of that, I like the play. Without that read, I agree with the above analysis.