Possibly interesting discussion on going all in.

[Fortune 500]

Let's set up a scenario. Let's set all things equal. You're down to 4 players.

All players have equal stacks of 3,000. You're on the button. Blinds are 300/600. You've got no read on your players. You look down and find a Q7, the absolute median poker hand. UTG has folded. You push, hoping the blinds will fold, given that we're on the bubble. If your calculation is correct, you will pick up 900 in chips.

Now, lets hold everything equal, except we'll move you into the small blind, so you've got 300 in the pot. UTG and the button have folded. You get your Q7 and push. If you're right, you'll make 600 in profit.

In the first scenario you have to get two players to fold. In the second, you've only got one perseon to get through to pick up his blind.

My question is this: Which is the better play?

My instinct is that the second play is better. You're already somewhat in the pot, so you're really only investing 2700 to make 600 net. Your stack would be 3600. I'm really not sure how to calculate your blind in here. Perhaps that's something we could discuss.Your net is 20% if you succeed.

In the first scenario, you're investing 3000 to win 900. Your stack would be 3900. Your net is 30 Percent, should you succeed.

But if we divide those totals by the number of people we need to get through, and consider each one independently, in the first scenario, each fold is only worth 15 percent, whereas with only one person, the gamble nets the full 20 percent if it succeeds.

My math may be all crazy, so that's open for discussion too. Just an interesting question I've been kicking around. Discuss.

[vqc]

I prefer the second one by far.

My intuition just tells me that having 1 person fold is just plain easier. The return might not be as big but its success rate is so much higher.

[DaNutsInYoEye]

Forget the math. I personally think both plays suck.

[a500lbgorilla]

Forget the math. I personally think both plays suck.

With 5 bets, neither play sucks.

-'rilla

[rubixstreub]

I say you're making the same in both situations, 900.

Even though in the second you're putting 300 in the pot, it's automatic before the cards are dealt, and there's still 900 in dead money.

Option 1: Push through 2 = 900
Option 2: Push through 1 = 900

I vote Option 2

[vqc]

if you think the second play sucks, I think ur a little too tight.

[BrokeSucca]

Forget the math. I personally think both plays suck.

With 5 bets, neither play sucks.

-'rilla

I'm not so sure. Because unlike reality none of your opponents are better off here either. Why not bet 1k at it (both scenarios). With everyone at 3K you shouldn't get called by anything mediocer and if you do and have to fold you still have enough to move on one of the next 2 hands because the other 2 players are more then likely afraid of bubbling. Yes/No?

[a500lbgorilla]

Forget the math. I personally think both plays suck.

With 5 bets, neither play sucks.

-'rilla

I'm not so sure. Because unlike reality none of your opponents are better off here either. Why not bet 1k at it (both scenarios). With everyone at 3K you shouldn't get called by anything mediocer and if you do and have to fold you still have enough to move on one of the next 2 hands because the other 2 players are more then likely afraid of bubbling. Yes/No?

The idea of leaving yourself some survival value is on you really need to get beyond. You really need to put all your chips (when you're under 10 bets) behind your bets for increased folding equity.

If you minraise to 1200 you're giving the BB 3:1 odds on your bet and neither of you will have near enough chips behind to do anything but push on the flop. So if BB just calls and the flop doesnt pair you, you're fucked. You could push, but it has less folding equity than your preflop push (and if you get called, it's a much worse mistake since you dont stand to be 60/40 with a calling hand on the flop) and if you check, you're just letting the bb push behind and pick up the pot. Also, if you do this from the button, it has very little folding equity AND now on the flop BB has the option to stop and go you.

So you should never be minraising with 5 bets becuase it reduces your folding equity (BAD) becuase it gives your opponent great odds to call AND neither of you have any chips behind for anything other than a flop push (which will be less EV than a preflop push becuase you have less folding equity and when you're called, you usually DONT have a good chance to suck out)

Did I make any sense?

-'rilla

[Fortune 500]

Whether pushing with a Q7 is a good move or not is not the question. Whether 1000 would do the same job or not isn't the question. My question is of the two plays, which is better? There are 100 other variables to consider, but I'm trying to control the two for an either or choice here. I just want to see where people stand on it. Then, I'll start introducing some variables into the equation.

[JeffreyGB]

To me, it depends on the table. If both players are weak tight, I like the first because it results in a larger stack in the end. If the players are smart enough to have a clue what you're doing and you might get playback as a result, I think I like the second situation better.

[BrokeSucca]

Did I make any sense?

-'rilla

Yes, thanks.

Whether pushing with a Q7 is a good move or not is not the question. Whether 1000 would do the same job or not isn't the question. My question is of the two plays, which is better? There are 100 other variables to consider, but I'm trying to control the two for an either or choice here. I just want to see where people stand on it. Then, I'll start introducing some variables into the equation.

Choice 2 then. You cut the odds of a call by 50% while only losing 10% of the net increase (assuming your math is right). But I don't see the point of the exercise in this format. (That's an inquiry not criticism)

[Fortune 500]

But I don't see the point of the exercise in this format. (That's an inquiry not criticism)

I'm not entirely sure where I'm going with this. Just thought it was interesting. It'll be a fun ride though

[Fortune 500]

Alright let's change the scenario a little. Let's tighten up the blinds and put a read on them. Lets say that they'll call with any pair 7s or higher, or two face cards. Does this increase or decrease the value of either play.

[BrokeSucca]

I wouldn’t think it would change the validity of the move over the “no reads” scenario. I do think it makes the move more valuable then if he is a “any-two-will-do” guy.

[Peja]

Alright let's change the scenario a little. Let's tighten up the blinds and put a read on them. Lets say that they'll call with any pair 7s or higher, or two face cards. Does this increase or decrease the value of either play.

Normally, if people are under 5 bets, they would call with those hands anyway, so it brings you back to the same scenario we started with. I believe, 4 bets, is when you push with basically anything, so at 5, you are very happy to see ANY PP and 2 face cards.

[vqc]

Alright let's change the scenario a little. Let's tighten up the blinds and put a read on them. Lets say that they'll call with any pair 7s or higher, or two face cards. Does this increase or decrease the value of either play.

Normally, if people are under 5 bets, they would call with those hands anyway, so it brings you back to the same scenario we started with. I believe, 4 bets, is when you push with basically anything, so at 5, you are very happy to see ANY PP and 2 face cards.

Your 4xBB rule is a little too loose in some situations.

[Peja]

Can you give me a situation where it is too loose including blinds and players left?

Not testing you or anything lol, I'd actually like to know.

[Aplomado]

I don't see why there's any debate, option 2 is obviously better. Like rubix said, the net gain is the same: 900. If you're in the small blind, those 300 in chips aren't yours any more than if you weren't in the small blind. They're already in the pot. Therefore, having to prompt only one person to fold instead of two is easily the stronger play. Same net gain, half the risk.

[vqc]

Can you give me a situation where it is too loose including blinds and players left?

Not testing you or anything lol, I'd actually like to know.

10+1
6 Players
50/100

Stacks Calling Ranges
1600 20%
1500 35%
1500 20%
400
1500
1500

If you are the 400 stack
You should only be pushing
33+,A5o+,A2s+,KJo+,KTs+ (20%)

Not even close to any 2.

[Peja]

Me and rilla ran a bunch of stuff like that, even 6-2 with a 4bb stack and it came as + EV from a few different positions.

[vqc]

run the numbers on mine if you will.

in the example i gave before the minimum $EV edge was 0.5% of hte prize pool. If you set it to 0.0% which is essentially all non negative $EV Pushes, it would come out to be
22+,A2+,K8o+,K3s+,QTo+,Q7s+,JTo,J7s+,T9o,T7s+,96s+ ,86s+,76s,65s (37%)

I still dont like pushing "ALL NON NEGATIVE".

[Peja]

Run 6-4 suited in the cutoff at 4 bets if its folded to you obviously, and also run it from the button please and tlel me what it says.

[vqc]

dpeneding on calling ranges, it can be negative or positive from both positions.

[Peja]

What are the default calling ranges with SNg power tools

[Demiparadigm]

Nice thread hijack guys.

Back to the original question:
There is 900 in the pot. Once you post your blind, the money no longer belongs to you.
In the first scenario you are risking 3000 to win 900 pushing into 2 players.
In the second scenario you are risking 2700 to win 900 pushing into 1 player.

This is not hard to figure out which is the better play.

[vqc]

What are the default calling ranges with SNg power tools

watever they are, they are too tight.
I listed my calling ranges in one of my posts.

[Zidane18]

definatly the first option. although u have to go through 2 players i still think u may be less likely to be called in the button raise because ur opponents will need a better hand to call.

If u push from the small blind then Q8 or Q9 or K6 may call u but if u raise from the button then they have to respect ur raise more

just my 2 cents

[Peja]

Your dealing with 2 more players, with the blinds that high and that little chips, peoples calling ranges grow. I see a raise from the button shorthanded as almost always a steal with no reads...this is subject to change with reads of course.