Final Table Major MTT - How would you have played this hand?

[digitaldoc]

Final Table, late in MTT. Would you have played it different and if so why?


*********** # 421 **************
PokerStars Game #2587686332: Tournament #12384319, Hold'em No Limit - Level XXIV (30000/60000) - 2005/09/16 - 04:42:34 (ET)
Table '12384319 113' Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: CABRUSTY (1392610 in chips)
Seat 2: bracboy (542417 in chips)
Seat 3: TheReader23 (56828 in chips)
Seat 4: Ian J (987000 in chips)
Seat 5: digitaldoc2 (1081752 in chips)
Seat 6: rebel3111 (709512 in chips)
Seat 7: piker80 (904086 in chips)
Seat 8: hotrodtruck (1797724 in chips)
Seat 9: chemeris (909071 in chips)
CABRUSTY: posts the ante 3000
bracboy: posts the ante 3000
TheReader23: posts the ante 3000
Ian J: posts the ante 3000
digitaldoc2: posts the ante 3000
rebel3111: posts the ante 3000
piker80: posts the ante 3000
hotrodtruck: posts the ante 3000
chemeris: posts the ante 3000
Ian J: posts small blind 30000
digitaldoc2: posts big blind 60000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to digitaldoc2 [6h Qs]
rebel3111: folds
piker80: folds
hotrodtruck: calls 60000
chemeris: folds
CABRUSTY: calls 60000
bracboy: folds
TheReader23: calls 53828 and is all-in
Ian J: folds
digitaldoc2: checks
*** FLOP *** [5d Qd Qh]
digitaldoc2: checks
hotrodtruck: checks
CABRUSTY: checks
*** TURN *** [5d Qd Qh] [4c]
digitaldoc2: bets 150000
hotrodtruck: folds
CABRUSTY: raises 150000 to 300000
digitaldoc2: calls 150000
*** RIVER *** [5d Qd Qh 4c] [Ac]
digitaldoc2: checks
CABRUSTY: bets 300000
digitaldoc2: calls 300000
*** SHOW DOWN ***
CABRUSTY: shows [4s Ad] (two pair, Aces and Queens)
digitaldoc2: shows [6h Qs] (three of a kind, Queens)
digitaldoc2 collected 1218516 from side pot
TheReader23: mucks hand
digitaldoc2 collected 272312 from main pot
DBo Fo Sho [observer] said, "hey below"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1490828 Main pot 272312. Side pot 1218516. | Rake 0
Board [5d Qd Qh 4c Ac]
Seat 1: CABRUSTY showed [4s Ad] and lost with two pair, Aces and Queens
Seat 2: bracboy folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: TheReader23 (button) mucked [Ah 2s]
Seat 4: Ian J (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: digitaldoc2 (big blind) showed [6h Qs] and won (1490828) with three of a kind, Queens
Seat 6: rebel3111 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: piker80 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: hotrodtruck folded on the Turn
Seat 9: chemeris folded before Flop (didn't bet)

[chardrian]

next time don't show the results. He's not on a draw with 23 cuz he wouldn't have minraised with that. If you're worried about the higher kicker (which is a valid worry) you played it fine.

[gabe]

you played it well. you must be somewhat worried about a boat or trips. nh.

[ilikeaces86]

check call allows you to let him bet a hand u have beat that he wouldnt call with . Win the most when your ahead and lose the least when your behind.

[jmontis]

I agree with aces, you have tournament changing monster hand here, and betting out could make the other 2 fold.

i check the flop
min bet the turn, hoping for a raise, i'd think for a sec then cold call
then check the river hoping he makes a huge bet...

why didn't you raise the river??

[ilikeaces86]

why didn't you raise the river??

Because he only gets called if he is beat.

[digitaldoc]

When I reviewed this hand today, I was wondering if I should have raised his bet on the river? But I was a little concerned about kicker troubles.

[ilikeaces86]

No absolutely not. You cant not raise this river. It is a waster of chips. He is only going to call you if you are beat!

[Staple Gun]

What MTT was this and how did you finish?

Anyways, I like how the hand was played. You couldve bet flop but I think waiting for someone to hit a pair is worth it. The turn bet is a msut, dont let anyone hit somehing better for cheap, and merely calling is good because the min reraise screams big hand. I think you played the hand well, maximizing your value.

[digitaldoc]

It was the Stars $10+1 RB&A 25K Grnty at 10:15 PM EST. Placed 6th.

[michael1123]

Aces is absolutely right, raising the river would be an awful play.

You played it well. I think you maybe overbet the turn just a little too much, since you can't expect to get that action from a pair of 4s, but you played it well.

[Theeggman]

Aces and Michael, would you check/call a river push here?

[konahead]

First, I bet that flop due to the flush draw - probably around 120K. (I'd rather take it down now or at least know where I stand.) What do you do when you check and the turn's a diamond?

But having not bet the flop, I play the rest the same as you did.

And no, you can't raise the river - a worse hand folds and a better hand re-raises. I can't count how many times I've raised in that situation, got pushed back at, and faced a monster hand. If I had only just called.....

[michael1123]

Aces and Michael, would you check/call a river push here?

No, unless the player has shown that he's retarded. A good player would never push on that river without a better hand than you had. There's not even a chop possibility with the 5 and 4 on the flop (unlike a QQAJx board or whatever, where you'd probably call / bet because its likely a chop). Him pushing would make it a pretty easy fold for you, considering the dry main pot.

I disagree with the last post about how you shouldn't check the flop. I'd usually check the flop there and hope they catch a pair or something on the turn. I basically think you played the hand beautifully, except for possibly betting a tiny bit too much on the turn, although that's rather debatable.

[konahead]

If there weren't two opps I'd check - I just don't want to drawn out on with a good pot already. (all-in guy doesn't count.) But checking will certainly get you more chips than betting if you're confident that you won't get outdrawn.

[michael1123]

Its not really about being confident that there's no way you can get outdrawn. Its about the odds that they'll outdraw on you, will you pay them off if they do, the odds that checking the flop will increase what you get out of them, etc. etc. etc.

You're a massive favorite, and will likely scare them out with a bet on the flop. Wait until the turn, and hope they pick up something (a pair, a draw, etc.), or think you're bluffing like this guy apparently did.

[konahead]

Well, I guess I would disagree that you're a "massive favorite" with a 6 kicker, 2 diamonds on the flop, and two active opps, but if we all didn't play a little differently, it wouldn't be as much fun, right?

And again, I agree that you'll pick up more chips by slow-playing it as long as you're confident that you are in fact ahead. But you better find out where you stand at some point. That 6 kicker sucks. If you wait for the turn and bet out and get raised, as happened here, you better hope opp doesn't have Q with a better kicker (which I assume is why digitaldoc slowed down on the river ...) It's not like there can't be another queen out there - people do tend to play them rather than fold them. And another diamond on the turn is gonna ruin his day - he'd be wishing he'd taken it down when he had the chance....

I just don't think digitaldoc is ahead enough on that flop to fully slowplay it. If he had a better kicker or only one opponent, I'd definately agree with you. Just my opinion...

[michael1123]

Well, I guess I would disagree that you're a "massive favorite" with a 6 kicker, 2 diamonds on the flop, and two active opps, but if we all didn't play a little differently, it wouldn't be as much fun, right?

He's a massive favorite against a flush draw, or any other hand that doesn't have him beat on the flop. The worry of being outkicked was obviously in my mind throughout the hand, and that's why I said you shouldn't rereraise the turn or raise the river. Still, its incorrect thinking to actually want a flush draw to fold to you - there's certainly absolutely no need to lose much on this hand if a diamond comes, with your crap kicker and 3 diamonds on the board, any heavy betting should make it clear to you that you're beat. Also consider that the 6 of diamonds would complete a flush draw and give you a hidden full house, and a board pair with a diamond gives you a full house as well, although you're unlikely to get much out of them in that case.

And its not a "full slowplay". Its just one check on the flop that clearly got him the action that he did get on this hand. Betting out just makes it extremely obvious that you have a Q, largely because of the dry main pot.

[konahead]

Yeah, I understand your reasoning. I guess I've been rivered so many times lately that I'm a little gun-shy. I've gotten into the habit of taking it down early rather than getting all I could out of it. And I realize that's the wrong approach, but lately I feel like it's saved me some chips.

Once I get through this bad beat hump, I'll play it the same as you suggest, michael.