Call here?

[MAX]

Hello- I have really enjoyed the forums and guides here and my game has definitly benefited. Here is a hand I played recently. What do you do you do in this situation post flop?

Normally I play similarly to the DavSimon strategy guide but decided to increase my agg. early in this particular sitngo. I planned on switching gears at this blind lvl and doing some camping.

***** Hand History for Game 2790444451 *****
50/100 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (Tournament 16147619) - Wed Sep 28 15:32:55 EDT 2005
Table Table 35323 (Real Money) -- Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 2: pesnyary (508)
Seat 3: maaddog1 (844)
Seat 4: HERO (1155)
Seat 5: boodidly (990)
Seat 6: LiveToDie (665)
Seat 7: Cluless (640)
Seat 9: J_I_M_M_Y_J (743)
Seat 10: Snik321 (2455)
LiveToDie posts small blind (25)
Cluless posts big blind (50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Ks, Kd ]
J_I_M_M_Y_J folds.
Snik321 calls (50)
pesnyary calls (50)
maaddog1 folds.
HERO raises (250) to 250
boodidly folds.
LiveToDie folds.
Cluless calls (200)
Snik321 folds.
pesnyary calls (200)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Jd, Ac, 8s ]
Cluless checks.
pesnyary checks.
HERO bets (75)
Cluless folds.
pesnyary raises (258) to 258
pesnyary is all-In.

Why only 75 on the flop? Well, I had been playing agg. and felt that is why I got the preflop calls in the 1st place. Figured it would look like I was just trying to extract what I could out of my obvious A. I was prepared to fold if Cluless pushed. I didn't want to commit myself to calling an ai from cluless with a bigger bet and hoped to squeeze him out or force him to reveal his strength. After the ai I decided I was probably beat but figured I was getting the right price to find out & see the last 2.

Lets not focus on the results, what would you have done post flop? If you took my line, would you call the 200 on the end?

RESULTS IN WHITE BELOW


HERO: nice flop
HERO calls (183)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ Ah ]
** Dealing River ** : [ 7s ]
Creating Main Pot with $1341 with pesnyary
** Summary **
Main Pot: 1341 |
Board: [ Jd Ac 8s Ah 7s ]
pesnyary balance 0, lost 508 [ Kh Qc ] [ a pair of aces -- Ac,Ah,Kh,Qc,Jd ]
maaddog1 balance 844, didn't bet (folded)
HERO balance 1988, bet 508, collected 1341, net +833 [ Ks Kd ] [ two pairs, aces and kings -- Ac,Ah,Ks,Kd,Jd ]
boodidly balance 990, didn't bet (folded)
LiveToDie balance 640, lost 25 (folded)
Cluless balance 390, lost 250 (folded)
J_I_M_M_Y_J balance 743, didn't bet (folded)
Snik321 balance 2405, lost 50 (folded)

[JeffreyGB]

Calling the 200 is a must at that point. Your 75 screams that you don't have the A, but are trying to take it down. From a short stack, there's nothing more to think about. I'd push with any two if I were him.

That's why I don't like the 75. Clueless is fairly likely to pick up on the same thing and make the very play that you're worried about. This isn't an issue if you make a real bet.

[taipan168]

I call here without a doubt. There's more than 1,150 in the pot and you need to put in an extra 183 to call, so you're getting about 6.3 to 1 pot odds, even if the guy has an ace you're getting the pretty much the right price to call. Plus the guy is the small stack at this stage so it's by no means certain that he does have the ace with his all-in bet.

Also, I think your bet on the flop is way too small. There's 825 in the pot pre-flop, even if you want to look weak, bet 1/3 the pot. This would put the short stack all-in. Betting 75 (which is only just larger than a min bet) is pretty much the same as checking, so then he turns the tables on you when he goes all-in. Make other people make the decision for all their chips!

[baudib]

Pretty decent play by the shortstack, I think.

[JeffreyGB]

Pretty decent play by the shortstack, I think.

Short-stack should have pushed or folded preflop. Calling for half his chips is completely pointless. Whether to push or fold depends on his read against MAX, but there's no way a call preflop was correct. There's also no way he can do anything but put the rest of his chips in regardless of the flop.

[MAX]

Jeffrey and Taipan- Thanks for the responses. A little food for thought:

The turn bet entices the short stack to push with a worse hand. But clueless has to think that one of us has an A and it's not him. Clueless might smell something fishy(I had continuation bet strong several hands previously and this was a change of pace) but fold anyway. If I bet 1/3 pot and Cluless pushes, I fold. Why waste the extra chips when he will fold/push for 75? Would you have been willing to ai bluff if you were cluless, w/no ace and the short stack caller left to act??? I guess he should be confident he is beat w/out having at least an A no matter what I bet. Also, I really felt like the 1/3 pot bet would be the weakest looking line of all my options because I had been 2/3 to potting previous flops.

[JeffreyGB]

Jeffrey and Taipan- Thanks for the responses. A little food for thought:

The turn bet entices the short stack to push with a worse hand. But clueless has to think that one of us has an A and it's not him. Clueless might smell something fishy(I had continuation bet strong several hands previously and this was a change of pace) but fold anyway. If I bet 1/3 pot and Cluless pushes, I fold. Why waste the extra chips when he will fold/push for 75? Would you have been willing to ai bluff if you were cluless, w/no ace and the short stack caller left to act??? I guess he should be confident he is beat w/out having at least an A no matter what I bet. Also, I really felt like the 1/3 pot bet would be the weakest looking line of all my options because I had been 2/3 to potting previous flops.

I didn't realize until I glanced at the hand again how short-stacked Clueless was at this point. Given that, I push this flop. Letting it go because Clueless had an extra ~100 chips isn't a good play. Make them make a decision for all their chips.

To answer your question, if I were Clueless, I wouldn't be in this position either. As stated above, I'd have pushed or folded preflop. I certainly wouldn't see a flop with a hand that would make me think twice about pushing here, so yes, I'd push here in his shoes, whether I had the A or not.

[a500lbgorilla]

75 chips was a horrible flop bet. Anyone who doesn't have an ace is getting basically a free card AND it's not expensive at all to bluff at you.

Horrible bet.

-'rilla

[MAX]

So with KK, 5bb raise preflop, 2 callers and an A high flop- you push?
Yeah, I guess I agree. I think it's reasonable to assume I'm behind on the flop. That's why I thought this was an interesting dilemma. I didn't want to pay off the middle stack for another 400 and any reasonable bet would commit me to doing so if they pushed over. Jeffrey would have outplayed me this time if he pushes over as the middle stack(another reason to push). I felt confident that the middle stack wouldn't reraise without an A. Given that read, my play is still bad due to 75 giving him the right price to chase if he has any outs. I appreciate the responses and agree that a push is the best play here. I guess I was looking for a way to not lose the extra 400 when Cluless has the A - but there is no perfect comprosmise with these stack sizes.
Thanks, MAX

[JeffreyGB]

Raising 75, you only get the weak-tight players with no hand out of it. You lose to any player that has any A and any player who has a decent enough survival instinct to make a play on you.

Making them play for the rest of their chips, you force them to think about what they have and how strong it really is. A lot of weak A's will fold. If you're not willing to make this play, it's a waste of chips to bet anything at all.

[taipan168]

Yes, I missed that Clueless was also a short stack, sorry. No question that on the flop you should put them both all-in. I wonder whether it makes a difference whether you push here or just bet enough to put Clueless all-in. It may be a minor point, and probably makes no difference, but I wonder whether a half-pot sized bet that puts both players all-in would be any different to just pushing your whole stack. Maybe the smaller bet may look more like AK that has hit rather than a large pocket pair defending.