MTT stack building and the bubble life

[Chicago_Kid]

Lately, I've had an extremely average MTT run and I'm looking for advice on how to improve my performance. I've probably played 200-250 MTTs total, so sample size could come into play. However, in my last 150 tourneys I have 3 final tables (200-499 players). In those over 500, I have none (but I've come close a couple times). So, this is obviously making my MTT education costly, although I love the format. So, I've retreated to ring to build BR and I've moved down to lower buy-in MTT's.

In most of my MTT's, I make it into the 20-30 percentile, but I usually end up bubbling out on a coinflip or some short-stacked deperation move. In my best tourneys, I'm dragging the pots when I need them, letting people hang themselves on my good hands, and generally avoiding trouble. So, at face value, it appears as though I'm playing good poker, but not good tournament poker--and I want to change that.

I keep going back to something Soupie said about the goal of MTT's "...is to outlast 80-90% of players and then catch some cards to jump into the big cash." Well...I'm apparently misapplying this advice, and at this point, I'm willing to concede that my bubbling performances MUST mean that I simply don't play aggressive enough to keep my stack building ahead of the blind structure. I must be passing up on opportunities to take chips, probably due to weak reads or the simple willingness to "look for a better opportunity".

How have others improved this aspect of their game? Take notes on players? Put pressure on anything that moves? Play balls-out until the other guy fails to blink twice?

A nebulous post and I know much of this is situational. But, any thoughts philosophical or practical are welcome...

CK

[gabe]

get reads, figure out what cards people probably have, then steal pots from them when you know they can't call

[jmontis]

early on, i build stacks by cards, but later on when the blinds are very large in proportion to the stacks, spotting things like continuation bets and raising them outta the pot is golden for chipping up

other than that, I don't mess around too much, there's a thin line between good poker and pure donkey play.

[DaNutsInYoEye]

I'm willing to concede that my bubbling performances MUST mean that I simply don't play aggressive enough to keep my stack building ahead of the blind structure. I must be passing up on opportunities to take chips, probably due to weak reads or the simple willingness to "look for a better opportunity".

You already know the answer to the questions you asked. Don't look for cards to be aggressive, look for opportunities. Note who isn't defending their blinds. Watch for short stacks just trying to survive to the money or that next higher payout level. If you think someone is trying to steal then have the courage to re-steal. One re-steal will often win you as many chips as stealing just the blinds and antes 3-4 times, and not only do you win chips directly, but your aggression helps protect your blind on subsequent hands. Who just won a big hand? They typically won't get involved in another big confrontation immediately after. Who just lost a big hand? They will often be willing to gamble and you don't want to mess with them unless you have the goods. Take notes on people. You might think you won't ever see someone again because it's a large MTT, but if you play enough you more than likely will run into some of them. If you get moved to a new table you might pass up some good opportunities because you are playing conservative until you get some reads. If you played with someone before and took good notes you won't miss them. There are many other situations you need to be looking for to steadily increase your stack and your aggression should progressively increase the closer you get to the button. Remember that in the late stages of a MTT, the first person in usually gets the win. It's better to bust out do to aggression than to blindout do to passivity.

[Hubris1]

Here's the problem with suggestions for MTTs:

Lets say I declare "Play tight in early levels and then apply pressure once antes kick in and teh guy on your BB or SB when you are button aren't clearly braindead."

You go and join a 30 dollar buyin tourney wher everyone is playing that way, you get fold arounds in the first level. You won't get paid on big hands unless someone else has a big hand (Keep in mind you have about 70 hands for that to elapse.) and you'll squeak into the first break with jack shit unless your opponents cards ran hot and your cards ran hotter.

Or, play like that in a 1 dollar tourney and your ass could final table playing that way.

MTTs are entirely read dependent and I might play TAG in level 1 and then be at the exact opposite end of the spectrum in level 2.

Let me given another example, I was playing in a rebuy tourney, at same table for an hour, horrible players, very passive but overbet mediocre hands, etc. Double up a couple of times, look ok. Get moved tables, all the sudden I am chip leader at the table by a good 10k and its folding around like crazy. All medium stacks, no short stacks, THIS IS POKER HEAVEN I SAY. 20 hands later I picked up 7 uncontested pots and increase my stack by 30% from seeing one flop.

Then I get moved again and I get the legendary Ilikeaces on my BB when I am button, and a TAG blind stealer on the button when I am BB. My two steal attempts blow up in my face courtesy of unabomber aces and my BB is getting chewed up by the goddamn TAG every time its folded around. Hubris gets it all in with a cointoss which loses to the TAGs fours hitting a set.

The play at the first table was radically different than the second table, which was different from the third. All it is is conditions and adjusting to those conditions in the third table I had problems adjusting to the conditions (Which were rather rough). There are no hard and fast rules or advice.

[ender555]

30$ mtt not much different than 1$ imo

[DaNutsInYoEye]

Here's the problem with suggestions for MTTs:

Lets say I declare "Play tight in early levels and then apply pressure once antes kick in and teh guy on your BB or SB when you are button aren't clearly braindead."

You go and join a 30 dollar buyin tourney wher everyone is playing that way, you get fold arounds in the first level. You won't get paid on big hands unless someone else has a big hand (Keep in mind you have about 70 hands for that to elapse.) and you'll squeak into the first break with jack shit unless your opponents cards ran hot and your cards ran hotter.

Or, play like that in a 1 dollar tourney and your ass could final table playing that way.

MTTs are entirely read dependent and I might play TAG in level 1 and then be at the exact opposite end of the spectrum in level 2.

His post wasn't concerning Level 1 or 2 play. It was asking about bubble play and beyond. You can ask for advice about pretty much in poker, MTT or otherwise, and the answer will almost indefinately be: "it depends." Yes, everything is situational, but that shouldn't change your overall strategy here. You need to be aggressive. If soupie or bmxicle is on your immediate right and johnnybax is two seats to your left, of course you are going to have to adapt to that situation. If instead you placed a tight/passive player and a calling station in those respective seats your strategy would be a quite different. Does that change the fact that you need to be aggressive when appropriate?

At the end of his post he acknowldged that much of it is situational. He wasn't looking for hard and fast rules, but rather general advice. Like you and Gabe said, you must develop solids reads. You then have to combine those reads with aggression.

[Hubris1]

30$ mtt not much different than 1$ imo

One is filled with tighties that think A8s is a bad hand from UTG, the other is filled with guys that will call an AI with A9o on a KQ3 flop. Can you figure out which is which?

[Hubris1]

His post wasn't concerning Level 1 or 2 play. It was asking about bubble play and beyond. You can ask for advice about pretty much in poker, MTT or otherwise, and the answer will almost indefinately be: "it depends." Yes, everything is situational, but that shouldn't change your overall strategy here. You need to be aggressive. If soupie or bmxicle is on your immediate right and johnnybax is two seats to your left, of course you are going to have to adapt to that situation. If instead you placed a tight/passive player and a calling station in those respective seats your strategy would be a quite different. Does that change the fact that you need to be aggressive when appropriate?

At the end of his post he acknowldged that much of it is situational. He wasn't looking for hard and fast rules, but rather general advice. Like you and Gabe said, you must develop solids reads. You then have to combine those reads with aggression.

His general issue is building a stack and mentioned he's busting out a lot on short stack desperation, as far as I am concerned stack building starts starts at level 1 and doesn't stop. In some tourneys you can camp, in some you can't. The point I was attempting to make is that the question is broad enough that its like asking "How do I make my car faster?" What kind of car is it? What speed range has the problem? What are your tires, what kind of gas do you use? Someone can drop in and say "Get nitrous yo!" just like someone can say "Steal more mang!" but its not always appropriate. The situation should be more like, what are the stakes, what are the table textures, what level gives you problems, when do you start pushing, what kind of player do you love to see on your BB, what kind do you hate, how do you deal with someone stealing your blind? Etc.

[ZenOffsuit]

My problem is that I am able to build up a stack pretty early. Lets say the blinds are 15/30, I am usually around 2500 chips. At this point I, as AOK would say 'camp like Davie Crockett' and not push marginal edge hands to protect my chips and stay out of trouble. Usually my stack dips here though because I either get sucked out on (my Ks lose to A/8 on the river) or I fold becuase I feel I am beat or, I make a move and get re-raised.

I find that I become pretty passive at this stage when my stack takes a hit or two. Now...the blinds have snuck up on me, so we are at 75/150, I have 1200 chips and the small stack on the table. I usually find a spot to make a move but it just gets me through the blinds and then I am back to 1200 again.

I feel like I am going in reverse until eventually I am pushing all-in and getting busted.

I guess I am not able to figure out the line between playing smart and being a pussy! I am finding that some strategies in SnGs do not apply to MTT play.

[ilikeaces86]

LOL.... "The legendary ilikeaces86" lol

[Chicago_Kid]

Lots of food for thought here...thanks for the advice. I realize that this is an area of my game I need to "discover" for myself.

Been working on attacking weakness the past couple nights, with some success. I'm putting myself out there more which leads to more mistakes, But I'm seeing that aggressive mistakes are Better than passive ones.

[gabe]

But I'm seeing that aggressive mistakes are Better than passive ones.

yea...being aggressive is a great way to pick up chips fast, but also a great way to lose them.

[DBL0SVN]

In most of my MTT's, I make it into the 20-30 percentile, but I usually end up bubbling out on a coinflip or some short-stacked deperation move.

I keep going back to something Soupie said about the goal of MTT's "...is to outlast 80-90% of players and then catch some cards to jump into the big cash." Well...I'm apparently misapplying this advice, and at this point, I'm willing to concede that my bubbling performances MUST mean that I simply don't play aggressive enough to keep my stack building ahead of the blind structure. I must be passing up on opportunities to take chips, probably due to weak reads or the simple willingness to "look for a better opportunity".

How have others improved this aspect of their game? Take notes on players? Put pressure on anything that moves? Play balls-out until the other guy fails to blink twice?

A nebulous post and I know much of this is situational. But, any thoughts philosophical or practical are welcome...

CK

Great topic for discussion - I'm sure a lot of fairly decent players have this problem where they can't quite make it from top 20-30% into the top 5-10%.

I think there's 2 ways to approach tournaments.
1. Conservative, where the primary goal is to comfortably get ITM. Then you see what happens next.
2. Aggressive, where you're really only interested in the final table. It's BIG money or bust!
They seem very different approaches, so take your pick, but I think you can make either one payoff and they both have several things in common.

Either way, Soupie is right. Take too many coinflips early on and you'll never even get near the bubble whichever style you play. But ALSO, whichever style you play, you ALWAYS have to be in stack accumulation mode. If you start at say 1000 chips and get up to 4000 before the first break, then camping like Crockett or Zenoffsuit will only let you fall back into the pack as the blinds grow and others build their stacks. Besides you actually need 10000 to be an average stack ITM, if top 10% make it.

So keep stack building in the difficult middle part of the tournament - and here's the important bit - without putting your tournie on the line too often. I think that goes for both Aggressive or conservative approaches. The Aggros will contest a lot more pots, but if they are constantly getting into races, they won't last long. That changes on the bubble where a dramatic increase in aggression may well be a successful strategy, especially if you're focussed on the final table.

How exactly to keep stackbuilding throughout the tournie without taking too many coinflips? Well, I agree with the others it depends .... but for most intermediate level players wanting to up their MTT game, I think it involves better reads and adjusting quickly to different table textures.

[ZenOffsuit]

Great points and great things to think about.

My intention is not to camp and wait for group 'A' cards, but at the same time, I am waiting for a hand with some type of potential. So if I raise and get called I may have some outs post-flop. If I am at 2500 chips and the blinds are 50/100, I am not going to raise a weak Ace or small PP(2s-5s) unless I read the blinds as real passive. Should I be raising these hands at this stage? I want to accumulate chips but maybe I am more afraid of losing them....

I would be more inclined to make a move w/ 9/10 suited from late middle-button at this point with a solid stack. I guess I am still more card dependent more then read dependent in the early/middle stages of a MTT. Maybe I need to open up my starting hand requirements in middle/late position.

Also, if you take a hit and now the blinds are 75/150 and you have been reduced to 1200 chips, how aggressive do you play? A/6o early middle Position. 1st to act.....Raise? Push? or wait for a better hand?

[zenbitz]

I am going to take a stab at this, even though I have little MTT experience (no time).

at 75/150 with 1200 chips, you are in coin-flip mode. You need a couple of double ups, probably to even make it ITM, and you don't have chips to poker with.

I would guess that you want to push/fold hands that, when called, are likely to get you flips. So, definitly NOT A6. A6 isn't a bad blind steal short-handed, but I am assuming that there are many bigger stacks at the table, and one might look you up with A9 out of spite.

So, clearly, you are going to want to push pairs and AK/AQ. The tighter the table, the more marginal hands you are going to have to push - hopefully blind stealing until you get called by a worse/coin-flip hand.

You should also be looking to call all-ins or push over with your best hands -- maybe 99/TT+ AK.

I think position is not that important with the better hands - you WANT to be called, you just want to not be dominated.

The tricky bit is that if you are pushing 10-15% of hands, you might not get called... which means you are treading water at best, and in trouble if you go card dead.

My guess is that you should open up and push your 9Ts and other things unlikely to be dominated by overcards. Probably push almost anything on the button, if blinds appear vaugely loose.

[Chicago_Kid]

An update here...

Last night I decided to not play my std. simultaneous 2-3 MTT's and just played one with the intent to focus on every player's move. Sounds like mickey mouse stuff, but I muted the TV, closed FTR, and Ventrilo and really dialed into the action.

Well, I picked up some things that I normally don't see when multi-tourney-ing, watching TV, and reading 'rilla trash talking posts. Picked off a couple bluffs--one on an AI river bet--which doubled me up. If I wasn't focussed, I probably fold there. Felt pretty good.

Obviously, I've been through periods like this before where I've been keenly "dialed in" to the action. 15 hours of work and school can hurt this focus level, so I'm taking that into consideration now before sitting down...

So, focus and distraction avoidance seem to be particularly challenging, yet foundational, for my further learnings. Not a news flash, but I thought I'd share... CK

[digitaldoc]

If you would like some other tips to help you develop reads and recognize plays, try this:

Pull up an MTT in your normal price range. Watch the hands for a few minutes. After you get comfortable with the table start determining who could have made a play but missed it, and who made a great play. It's almost like playing poker with out seeing any cards. I do this when I get down to two MTT's in later stages. I try to determine if I was in player X's shoes, what play would I have made irrelevant to his cards. You'll be amazed at how quickly this becomes second nature and you instinctively pick up when someone is weak and when someone is strong. This ability will help you build your stack in later stages of tourney as well.

[DBL0SVN]

Great points and great things to think about.

My intention is not to camp and wait for group 'A' cards, but at the same time, I am waiting for a hand with some type of potential. So if I raise and get called I may have some outs post-flop. If I am at 2500 chips and the blinds are 50/100, I am not going to raise a weak Ace or small PP(2s-5s) unless I read the blinds as real passive. Should I be raising these hands at this stage? I want to accumulate chips but maybe I am more afraid of losing them....

I would be more inclined to make a move w/ 9/10 suited from late middle-button at this point with a solid stack. I guess I am still more card dependent more then read dependent in the early/middle stages of a MTT. Maybe I need to open up my starting hand requirements in middle/late position.

Also, if you take a hit and now the blinds are 75/150 and you have been reduced to 1200 chips, how aggressive do you play? A/6o early middle Position. 1st to act.....Raise? Push? or wait for a better hand?

Zenoffsuit, whether you play your cards or the situation depends on whether you're taking a conservative or aggressive approach to the tournament.

Raising weak aces and small pp's is probably not good unless you already have a read that your opponent is weak, in which case, you could raise with any 2 cards and get them to fold. Without good reads or good positional sense, you'll have to rely on cards. And you'll have to take chances with good but not great hands like TT or KQ.

If you do take a hit, you'll have to push but hands that aren't likely to be dominated like medium suited connectors, eg 89s, are good for this as well as the usual strong/premium hands. As Zenbitz said - an Ace with small kicker is too easily dominated if someone calls.

[DBL0SVN]

If you would like someother tips to help you develop reads and recognize plays, try this:

Pull up an MTT in your normal price range. Watch the hands for a few minutes. After you get comfortable with the table start determining who could have made a play but missed it, and who made a great play. It's almost like playing poker with out seeing any cards. I do this when I get down to two MTT's in later stages. I try to determine if I was in player X's shoes, what play would I have made irrelevant to his cards. You'll be amazed at who quickly this becomes second nature and you instinctively pick up when someone is weak and when someone is strong. This will help you build your stack in later stages of tourney as well.

Great idea Doc! Not having to think about your actual cards, since you're just watching, opens you up to sensing strength, weakness and the opportunities during the hand. A bit like playing with your own cards covered up on the screen, but a cheaper and definitely less stressful way of learning

[jmontis]

thought i'd post again in this thread

earlier today in an $18 r/a, I made 14th in a 300 man tourney when my cards should have dictated a total OOM finish...

point is I stole so many blinds from tight players it gave me enough of a stack to almost make a final table, despite what my cards were.

I got to a point where I was just fearing re-raises, but nope, I must have stolen nearly 75% of my chips in that tourney.

[DBL0SVN]

Nice job. Did you make most of your steals in the middle of the game, on the bubble, once you were ITM or throughout?

[Chicago_Kid]

thought i'd post again in this thread

earlier today in an $18 r/a, I made 14th in a 300 man tourney when my cards should have dictated a total OOM finish...

point is I stole so many blinds from tight players it gave me enough of a stack to almost make a final table, despite what my cards were.

I got to a point where I was just fearing re-raises, but nope, I must have stolen nearly 75% of my chips in that tourney.

I find that this situation has lead to the most ITM finishes. Tighties rule...

However, these situations are pretty rare, usually you end up with 2-3 Tags you have to deal with. The problem is when I try to defend myself, I so often end up getting burned with AK vs 88 or something...so, perhaps my betting pattern is a tell here? E.g., guy in MP raises to 3x and I r/r 3x more with AK, then he calls, and check/calls my F and T continuations, somehow putting the correct read on me, before I check the river and he takes it.