POT ODDS... Ring vs. MTTs

[Monty9]

Good day all,

Do you guys really pay that much attention to pot odds during MTTs?

I find myself folding alot when I know I have decent odds to call with the idea of trying to survive for a better spot to risk my stack.

I find myself calling more with odds at ring because my stack is not really defined or limited as it is in an MTT.

If you do call with odds in MTT's is it because you play alot of them to make up for odds when you dont hit that hand?

[mxiu]

I'm not an experienced MTT player, but from what I gathered, stack sizes are much more important than pot odds. Just because you're getting 3 to 1 on your flush draw doesn't mean you should call off half of your stack every time early in the tournament.

[Sed]

If I am semi-bluffing into a shorter stack where he may go all in with a part of the board, I bet the amount that would give myself correct pot odds to call off the push when the opportunity presents itself...

- sed

[digitaldoc]

Pot odds are far less important in an MTT than in an ring game. In a ring game you are looking to make bets with a +EV that over time will net you a nice profit. In an MTT you don't have the luxury of time. I always looking for the opportunity to dominate my opponents in a MTT.

[bluedevil907]

I'm an almost exclusive tourney player myself, so pot-odds don't really apply the same way they would in a ring-game.

Early tourney, pot-odds pretty much go out the window in favor of implied odds. If you can hit a set with that pp or chase that OESD knowing the other player will call off their stack regardless of what pops up, then it's more important to consider how their stack stands against your odds. Once you double up through someone, then you might want to start playing a bit less wild, but if the blinds are still fairly low, keep looking for opportunities to snag a lot of chips.

Mid-tourney, pot-odds are a much larger factor, since the blinds are starting to be worth something and raises take away sizeable portions of chips. Even if you have the pot-odds to call, it may not always be the best move, so really consider how you're going to get the most chips off a hand against any particular player. Playing the cards alone won't win you the chips you need here, gotta play the player as well.

Late-tourney, the blinds catch up to everyone so the concept of any real "odds" are shot. It's more about controlled aggression, blind stealing, and hittin' those cards. Right on the bubble is a great place to kick up your aggressive play, just try to avoid making moves on the BIG stacks, they'll be a lot more likely to call you down than the rest of the table hangin' on by a thread. If a hand is giving you odds, that's great, but most of the time here you're gonna have to do a lot of gambling.

Hope some of that helped.

[drmcboy]

pot odds are always important. Just like in ring, when the money is deep in a tourney implied odds are more important. Just like in ring, when the money is shallow pot odds are more important. "pot odds don't matter’ is a popular myth perpetuated by players who know they weak tight suck and are looking for an excuse to keep playing that way, then they can just blame the cards.

Late-tourney, the blinds catch up to everyone so the concept of any real "odds" are shot.

You have a nice post going, and then this? ugggggg.

[biondino]

But you know what he means, right - almost any time you enter a hand late-tourney, you have to be willing to push or fold. Having said that, it actually means odds are even more important because, relatively speaking, you need to know how your hand will hold up against likely rival hands if you're all all-in.

[arkana]

Tournament poker for advanced players by none other than Sklansky does a good job at looking at the differences between tournies and cash games IMO.

[drmcboy]

it actually means odds are even more important

exactly. I was trying to give bluedevil a chance to clarify that.

[Monty9]

Thanks for all the input.

I pretty much had it figured the way you have all said.

[digitaldoc]

As your game progresses you will start focusing less and less on the actual odds and more and more on playing the moment. Odds, after all, are only one of a multitude of inputs used to determine the correct play.

[Toe]

Harrington in his book places an awful lot of emphasis on pot odds.

[drmcboy]

As your game progresses you will start focusing less and less on the actual odds and more and more on playing the moment. Odds, after all, are only one of a multitude of inputs used to determine the correct play.

yep - as your game progresses you won't think as much about odds because you automatically intergrate them into your thinking process, because most of the spots you'll be in (in terms of cards and pot size) you've been in a million times before - only the players are different.

[bluedevil907]

Sorry, should have worded it differently for clarity.

That late in the tourney you're probably in push or fold mode, unless you're the big stack (even so, a lot of people get way too passive with the big stack on final tables and bleed off all their chips to blinds, eventually becoming the short stack). Just calling burns a tremendous amount of your chips, so most of the time you're looking to steal off an AI and then the time you finally DO hit a hand, try to isolate and get all the chips in while you're still ahead. In the event you actually see a flop with some betting to do, pot odds will probably mandate you call to chase the flush or OESD, so once again consider if you're willing to go AI with your hand pre-flop since that's probably where you'll end up.

If there's any odds to be focusing on at this point, it's the odds of your opponent folding. Move for steals on tight players, move for double-ups on the loose players.


Feel free to point out any addtional holes in my strategy here drmc, I'm still relatively new to the game, so I'm always welcome to input. Hope some of that helps or at least sparks a few opinions.

[drmcboy]

are you more likely to push with some hands, more likely to fold others?

That's because of the odds they will win.

Making bets with the right odds is what poker is about, always.

[digitaldoc]

Making bets with the right odds is what poker is about, always.

If you are talking about playing cards, I agree with this staement 100%. If you're talking about playing poker in late stages of an MTT I would have to disagree. I've made plays without regard to my hand let alone odds. In later stages of tournaments its more about what two cards they have and less about what two cards you have....just wanted to plant that seed.

[zilch]

Harrington in his book places an awful lot of emphasis on pot odds.

Just goes to show how important that odds are in poker. The way I look at pot odds in tourns is "just because you have the odds doesn't mean you should make the play, but only make plays when you have the odds." I think that Slansky puts it quite well near the begining of TFAP when he mentions about giving up a small edge now for a larger edge later.

[Chicago_Kid]

Perhaps this is a semantic point, but I like the term "pot equity" to cover this concept.

Any time you bet enough to introduce the possibility of your opponent folding you have increased your long term pot equity (the amount of the pot you will win in the long run given a certain action), by increasing your fold equity. Fold equity always increases your overall pot equity above the equity derived from the odds of drawing to a higher hand (hand equity). This is why checking and calling is so weak, b/c you have forfeited your chance at capturing fold equity.

pot equity = fold equity + hand equity

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ht=fold+equity