keep TPTK or dump it?

[mcatdog]

I've busted out of a few SNG's lately by overplaying TPTK. I'm trying to get the hang of when I should be willing to put my stack in with it, and when to let it go. These hands are from a couple of 20+2's on PokerRoom.

Hand 1
Seat 1: CO ($1,470 in chips)
Seat 2: Button ($1,040 in chips)
Seat 3: SB ($2,140 in chips)
Seat 4: Hero ($1,500 in chips)
Seat 6: UTG ($2,365 in chips)
Seat 7: UTG+1 ($2,040 in chips)
Seat 8: UTG+2 ($1,325 in chips)
Seat 9: MP1 ($1,435 in chips)
Seat 10: MP2 ($1,685 in chips)

PRE-FLOP
Hero is BB with Q,A
UTG calls $20, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button calls $20, SB folds, Hero checks.

FLOP [board cards 8,9,2 ]
Hero checks, UTG checks, Button checks.

TURN [board cards 8,9,2,Q ]
Hero bets $70, UTG calls $70, Button calls $70.

RIVER [board cards 8,9,2,Q,3 ]
Hero checks, UTG bets $200, Button bets $500, Hero?

Reads: This is about the seventh hand of the tournament. UTG has seen most flops so far. He got his stack by calling a MP raise with 4 2 and chasing a flush that landed on the turn. Button has seemed solid until the hand right before this one, when there was a 4-straight on board, he made a big bet with nothing, and was called by the nut straight.


Hand 2
Seat 1: UTG+1 ($1,430 in chips)
Seat 2: UTG+2 ($1,090 in chips)
Seat 3: MP1 ($1,300 in chips)
Seat 4: MP2 ($2,195 in chips)
Seat 5: CO ($1,195 in chips)
Seat 6: Button ($2,855 in chips)
Seat 7: SB ($1,885 in chips)
Seat 9: BB ($1,450 in chips)
Seat 10: Hero ($1,600 in chips)

PRE-FLOP
Hero is UTG with A,K
Hero bets $100, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls $100, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds.

FLOP [board cards T,A,8 ]
Hero bets $150, UTG+2 bets $990 and is all-in, Hero?

Reads: Hero gained 100 chips a couple of hands ago by raising preflop, getting one call, and making a continuation bet which was not called. UTG+2 lost some chips a few hands ago when he flopped top pair, shit kicker in the BB and called down a limper with a better kicker. That's the only hand he's played so far.

[gabe]

hand 1: good play if you check/folded river.
hand 2: im inclined to think you are ahead, and i usually call.

[salsa4ever]

hand1 fold
hand2 call. if he shows me a set, "nh"

[taipan168]

Hand 1: I agree fold on the river. Why no PF raise here? You could then c-bet the flop which may have knocked out the weaker flush draws. If it didn't, your pot-sized bet on the turn would have been more substantial, making the flush draws think twice.
Hand 2: Call, I think you're ahead. I would have thought that a set or AT would have just smooth called your 150 bet.

[drmcboy]

Hand 1 - ? Fold. It's not close. Try not to get broke with TPTK in a unraised pot. Limping AQ early is fine, but you can't proceed to go broke, especially when both called the turn.

Hand 2 - call. Too many draws or hands you beat that can make this play.

Did you guys see Helmuth fold here against AA in the WSOP? Unreal. I hate the guy but wow.

[MAX]

Hand 1: Raise preflop. You have to get the junk hands out. Make them pay if they want to play. C-bet the flop and pot the turn(will be much bigger and discourage chasers as taipan said). I am not real concerned with AK/AA/KK/QQ limping, and if they did they'll probably let you know with a reraise. Obviously have to fold the river as played.
Hand 2: If he has a set and plays it like that than I pay him off. Actually am much more concerned about 2 pair, but I still pay him off.

[silverfist]

You should definitely fold that AQ. One of them may be bluffing, but not both.

I might have been inclined to raise that AQ preflop, though. You're probably not facing AA, KK, QQ or AK since everyone has acted and no one raised. That means you've almost certainly got the best or near-best hand. One or two might fold. If you miss, you can do a continuation bet and maybe take down the pot against the remaining limpers. If you hit, you're better off with less people to draw out on you.

I'd call the second one. Yep, you might be beat, but if he was really that confident, why did he go all-in? He may have AT or 88, but probably not. He's the short stack and probably just looking for an opportunity to double up, so his pushing standards are probably pretty low right now. The $350 he'd steal by your folding are probably looking pretty tasty.

[mcatdog]

OK, just making sure I played both hands the right way. Hand 2 I called, he showed AQ and I busted him. Hand 1 I folded the river, UTG called and turned over JT for the straight. Button had nothing again. Should I have called 200 if Button had folded?

I didn't raise preflop because I hate playing AK and AQ out of position when I miss the flop. Let's say I raise it up to 100, UTG calls, Button folds, the flop is rags, I put out a continuation bet, UTG calls, and I put him on a medium pair and check-fold the turn unless it hits my hand. This happens all the time and I'm wondering why I wasted 20 percent of my chips when I could have seen the flop cheap. If I'm in the blinds, it's very early in the game, and there are already only one or two other people in the hand, why raise? If there were 6 limpers I would put in a big raise to get rid of the trash, but I don't see why that's necessary here.

[STIdrivr]

Did you guys see Helmuth fold here against AA in the WSOP? Unreal. I hate the guy but wow.

Yes i was impressed when he laid this down. He is good at reading people and i remember the guy saying some stuff or he looked happy i cant remember.

[a500lbgorilla]

hand 1: good play if you check/folded river.
hand 2: im inclined to think you are ahead, and i usually call.

Nothing more to add. When you run into that type of aggression from 2 different sources, you can confidently let it go. Besides probably being beat, you've only invested about 90 chips into this pot so cutting your loses is pretty easy.

-'rilla

[Scuba Chuck]

Hand 2
Seat 1: UTG+1 ($1,430 in chips)
Seat 2: UTG+2 ($1,090 in chips)
Seat 3: MP1 ($1,300 in chips)
Seat 4: MP2 ($2,195 in chips)
Seat 5: CO ($1,195 in chips)
Seat 6: Button ($2,855 in chips)
Seat 7: SB ($1,885 in chips)
Seat 9: BB ($1,450 in chips)
Seat 10: Hero ($1,600 in chips)

PRE-FLOP
Hero is UTG with A,K
Hero bets $100, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls $100, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds.

FLOP [board cards T,A,8 ]
Hero bets $150, UTG+2 bets $990 and is all-in, Hero?
.

I don't know how I could even advise you on this without knowing what the blinds are? That being said, you're not often worried about someone else showing aggression in SNGs, as you are about the smooth call. If he shows you 2 pair, then nh. But those are the only hands you're worried about. And you still have 3 outs to suckout. furthermore, this appears to be early in an sng, and villain has already lost a significant portion of his stack early, so villain = donkey. Easy call.

[mcatdog]

Sorry, the blinds were 15/30.

[medic754]

I've busted out of a few SNG's lately by overplaying TPTK. I'm trying to get the hang of when I should be willing to put my stack in with it, and when to let it go. These hands are from a couple of 20+2's on PokerRoom.

Hand 1
Seat 1: CO ($1,470 in chips)
Seat 2: Button ($1,040 in chips)
Seat 3: SB ($2,140 in chips)
Seat 4: Hero ($1,500 in chips)
Seat 6: UTG ($2,365 in chips)
Seat 7: UTG+1 ($2,040 in chips)
Seat 8: UTG+2 ($1,325 in chips)
Seat 9: MP1 ($1,435 in chips)
Seat 10: MP2 ($1,685 in chips)

PRE-FLOP
Hero is BB with Q,A
UTG calls $20, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button calls $20, SB folds, Hero checks.

FLOP [board cards 8,9,2 ]
Hero checks, UTG checks, Button checks.

TURN [board cards 8,9,2,Q ]
Hero bets $70, UTG calls $70, Button calls $70.

RIVER [board cards 8,9,2,Q,3 ]
Hero checks, UTG bets $200, Button bets $500, Hero?

Reads: This is about the seventh hand of the tournament. UTG has seen most flops so far. He got his stack by calling a MP raise with 4 2 and chasing a flush that landed on the turn. Button has seemed solid until the hand right before this one, when there was a 4-straight on board, he made a big bet with nothing, and was called by the nut straight.

You are out of position here. I think that is one problem. Neither of them would have bet on the turn or would have bet minimum if they were first. If you were in position, you could have raised and probably forced them out. The only other suggestion might have been to raise bigger than $70. I realize it was 3.5 x BB, but still only $70. They didn't have to pay much to see the river card.

Your question was in regard to "overplaying TPTK". I would say that MAYBE you underplayed it. Like I said, you might have forced out the flush draw with a larger bet.

Given the way you played it to that point, definite fold with flush and straight draws out there. Button was willing to bet 1/2 his stack. You gotta assume he hit one of them. Although, I would have expected a raise on the turn if one of them had the straight.

EDIT: I see above that the guy actually had the straight, not the flush. Certainly, more than $70 would not have swayed this guy. Big raise PF is only way to win this hand and you were out of position (as you noted above). Fold it and move on.

Nice call in 2nd hand... I would have been 50:50 on whether to call or fold. Seeing 1st hand how he had been playing probably would be determining factor.