My thoughts on the ITM to FT stage

[chardrian]

It seems like we have been having an influx of players saying that they are happy with the times they are making it ITM, but just can't seem to finish and make the FT. They are asking what they need to do to make it to the FT.

1) I think the most important answer is to play. Relative beginners keep seeing the "big names" making it to FT's over and over and wonder what they are doing wrong. While it is true that we are probably not as good as those regular big names yet, it is also true that they are playing lots and lots and lots more tourney's than we are. Professional MTTers are not playing one or two tourneys a night as many of us are - so the fact that they are making so many more FTs than we are is partly due to the simple fact that they are playing a lot more than we are. Concentrate more on the percentage of times you are making it to ITM and the percentage of time you are making FTs rather than the number of times you are making the FT (because you simply are not going to match up to the guys who are playing these for a living).

2) Blinds become a huge percentage of the majority of players' stacks at some point during the ITM to FT stage in basically every MTT I've ever been in (I haven't played the deep stack tourneys that are popping up so I can't say if that's true there as well). So, yes at this stage in the tourney races are going to become much more common - you will see AQ and AK going against pocket pairs many many times, and you will probably have to win some of those races. It sorta sucks to think/know that making it to ITM is based heavily on playing well (rather than playing lucky) and making it to the FT is based more on hitting some cards but that's just the way it goes. Anyhoo, if you keep playing well enough that you are making it ITM in decent shape, the FTs will follow.

[WildBobAA]

Good post. It's also incredibly important to steal blinds once you are ITM. Most pots at this stage are someone raising 3x then all folds or like you mentioned, all in showdowns.

[chardrian]

It's also incredibly important to steal blinds once you are ITM. Most pots at this stage are someone raising 3x then all folds or like you mentioned, all in showdowns.

I agree.

[gabe]

once you hit ITM, its usually a good idea to lay off stealing blinds for a bit, until you get closer to the FT bubble, except for picking on players who are too tight.

[chardrian]

I also agree. The two times to lay off blind stealing is right when you make it ITM and right when you hit the FT.

[Miffed22001]

i think one of the thinks many who havent made a ft forget once they get itm is they can still sit there for half an hour and play no hands. Patience is the key. Im not saying you go ssuper tight, but people seem to stop playing the poker that has got them there in the first place.
great post though, i like it

[digitaldoc]

I think top rated players online look at the ITM to FT period very differently than most players do. Since they have been there so many times, it's not that big a deal for them and their goal is to win it all. They are constantly looking for opportunities to take chips from people and add them to their stack. Things like blind steals, re-steals and pot take downs when weak bets are made are all common by these players. Very quickly they become the one player that no-one wants to face at their table. Aggression is rewarded during this phase. And they are very willing to loose it all to win it all. They tend to pick on stacks smaller than they are, keeping the pressure up till you push with something you don't want to. They are not scared of a big bet and often will call from the big blind to do a delayed re-steal after the flop. I truly believe they focus on chip accumilation. Average chip stack for FT maybe 10 times as big as the chipstack for ITM.

Now having said all that....there is some merit to letting the all the short stacks go at each other right after ITM. Usually within an orbit or two they clear themselves out. Same way when you make it to the final table. Also the deeper you get, the more and more the game shifts to be about what two cards your opponent holds and a lot less about what two cards you have. The willingness to push a 2.5x raise into the pot with 63o from the cutoff into an unraised pot is a play made upon your opponents previous play and what you think they are capable of calling with.

[gabe]

They are constantly looking for opportunities to take chips from people and add them to their stack. Things like blind steals, re-steals and pot take downs when weak bets are made are all common by these players. Very quickly they become the one player that no-one wants to face at their table. Aggression is rewarded during this phase. And they are very willing to loose it all to win it all. They tend to pick on stacks smaller than they are, keeping the pressure up till you push with something you don't want to. They are not scared of a big bet and often will call from the big blind to do a delayed re-steal after the flop. I truly believe they focus on chip accumilation. Average chip stack for FT maybe 10 times as big as the chipstack for ITM.

i think this is more true right outside of the money and right outside of the final table, not necessarily the entire time between ITM and FT.

[digitaldoc]

While it probably is more true just outside the money and final table, I still firmly believe they are constantly looking for opportunities to gain chips.

What seperates them from the more novice player is that they have a much larger experience and reference base. Using this huge base of experiences allows them to almost instinctually know when someone is weak and someone is strong. Their subconscieous mind filters all the information and compares it to past experiences and helps them decide what to do. It's this ability that allows them to excell post flop as well as exploit the smaller advantages that most other players pass on.

[digitaldoc]

Having re-read my post - I realized I didn't give any great ways of helping build your reference base. Having worked in the professional/personal development and performance field for many years, I noticed that there are a few key things that must be done to excell in anything.

1.) Truly decide if this is something you want to master. Are you willing to do what ever it takes to master this to a level that would provide you with $100,000 of yearly income?

2.) Immersion! Playing or studying once a week will not allow for rapid development. If you spent an hour a week developing your game, you'd forget half of what you learned last week and probably most of everything before. Make a committment of some serious time to immerse yourself in the game to study it.

3.) Learn from the masters, not the teachers. Seek out the very best and find out what they do. Pull up pocketfives.com list of ranked players and seek out the coaching of the top list. They know the small subtle differnces that will be the deciding factor between good and great.

4.) Spaced repitition. Everyone needs a little time to integrate what they learn into their own game. After you have gone through the immersion state, spend some time integrating what you learned, then go back for another immersion session to learn more.

5.) Seek out ways to capture more and more references to add to your memory. Read books, listen to CD's, talk to people, write articles, and anything else that keeps building references in your mind. Spend more time listening with an open mind than talking with an open mouth.

Just some thoughts...

[Sprayed]

Anyhoo, if you keep playing well enough that you are making it ITM in decent shape, the FTs will follow.

I think that this is what I was looking for to ensure that I was doing the right things. I can make it ITM most of the time by just staying out of trouble and grinding it out. Once I get there I have this crazy feeling like I need to accumulate chips fast to get to the FT. That's when I bust. The ever increasing blinds start to put pressure on me and I feel like I have to make a move. Sounds like the tourney pretty much starts over when you get ITM and the same goes at the FT.

Great post Thx.

[gabe]

While it probably is more true just outside the money and final table, I still firmly believe they are constantly looking for opportunities to gain chips.

agreed, i'm just making the point that once the bubble bursts you won't seem them making the types of moves you mentioned.

[chardrian]

I can make it ITM most of the time by just staying out of trouble and grinding it out. Once I get there I have this crazy feeling like I need to accumulate chips fast to get to the FT. That's when I bust. The ever increasing blinds start to put pressure on me and I feel like I have to make a move. Sounds like the tourney pretty much starts over when you get ITM and the same goes at the FT.

This is the only place where aok's post bit me in the ass a bit. His advice to figure out how many chips you need to make the money and how many chips you need to FT was a revelation to me. But I took it too far. I thought I had to get to the average stack by ITM and I had to get to the avergae stack by FT. But really, if you get to be the average stack when these turning points are made you are actually doing quite well - i.e. if you need 300k to make the final ten cuz there are 3 million chips in play and you actually make it to 300k at the FT you will notice that you are almost always in 3rd or 4th place with one or two really big stacks and one or two really small stacks that just squeaked in). So don't make the average stack a must, make it a goal that you would like to get as close to as possible.

The "OMG, I made the money, but I should be at 45k not at the 32k I am at right now, and I'm gonna need to be at 300K to make the FT" will make you make mistakes - the biggest one for me being calling off my stack with a mediocre holding (instead of raising with it) preflop because you feel you have to double/triple up RIGHT NOW!

[Sprayed]

This is the only place where aok's post bit me in the ass a bit.

I can attest to that. It is a great strat, but I know that I took it too far after a while. I made the money three tourneys in a row after using it but then I fizzled out. I thought maybe I need to get to that ITM chip #. Then I started to lose because I was taking risks that I shouldn't have. I still use it but only to keep me from taking a chance that I shouldn't when the blinds are small in relation to my stack.

[chardrian]

Congrats on becoming one pair sprayed - now stop writing so many words per post. That's my claim to fame. Others might be post whores, I am a word per post whore.

[Sprayed]

ok

[Sprayed]

is that better

[Gravel]

Nice post Chardrian. This conversation is right in line with the post I made today. I also like your re-buy strategy. It's been working for me pretty good on PokerStars. Made one final table and won 1700 and have been cashing pretty consistently. Finished in the money again tonight but lost a race to finish around 100 or so.

Anyway, keep up the posts. Nice advice.

[chardrian]

Much better sprayed.

Ty Gravel - glad it helped.

[Gravel]

When you figure how to make KK stand up against A7, and various other bad beats let me know.

Just how many posts does it take to get a pair? :P

[Sprayed]

I think 20 or 25.

[michael1123]

I think top rated players online look at the ITM to FT period very differently than most players do. Since they have been there so many times, it's not that big a deal for them and their goal is to win it all. They are constantly looking for opportunities to take chips from people and add them to their stack. Things like blind steals, re-steals and pot take downs when weak bets are made are all common by these players. Very quickly they become the one player that no-one wants to face at their table. Aggression is rewarded during this phase. And they are very willing to loose it all to win it all. They tend to pick on stacks smaller than they are, keeping the pressure up till you push with something you don't want to. They are not scared of a big bet and often will call from the big blind to do a delayed re-steal after the flop. I truly believe they focus on chip accumilation. Average chip stack for FT maybe 10 times as big as the chipstack for ITM.

Now having said all that....there is some merit to letting the all the short stacks go at each other right after ITM. Usually within an orbit or two they clear themselves out. Same way when you make it to the final table. Also the deeper you get, the more and more the game shifts to be about what two cards your opponent holds and a lot less about what two cards you have. The willingness to push a 2.5x raise into the pot with 63o from the cutoff into an unraised pot is a play made upon your opponents previous play and what you think they are capable of calling with.

Best post of the thread. Its dead on. I can't say I agree with the first post at all, personally. For a reference point, I on average play 4-5 MTTs a week.

Another key is that good players are generally not risking their stack when they're looking to build their stack heading towards the final table. They also definitely don't try and build their stack up fast, unless they're under or around 10xBB. They're constantly looking to build their stack, but slowly and patiently, mostly through small pots (compared to the blinds), and then eventually get one big hand that'll win them a massive pot. Then its back to work, winning small pots through well timed aggression, but still being patient and waiting for the next big hand. Nothing has to be forced when you're not short stacked.

[digitaldoc]

Thanks Michael1123....it's not often a veteran like yourself gives nob like myself such reinforcement! I feel better already!

[lamaros]

Hey, my expereince is just in $1 tournies so far, but I have made 2 from 2 final tables, with 1st and 2nd stacks on entering it, so I think I have some idea(thought granted not much, and only against poor players).

As far as I'm concerned once I'm ITM with a better than average stack (which you get by playing very tight early) the cards become almost meaningless. If you are able to make quick reads on the players in your table then you'll find the chips pretty easy to accumulate. If you pick your spots well then the aggression you dish out isn't necessarily dangerous, and you can often keep up the tight image you had from earlier in the tournament.

You use the times you do get cards to take down big pots and reinforce your scary image, and then use the time between to steal blinds, take small pots, and other such things.

[Monty9]

Hey all,

As you know Im also a newbie and only play an MTT maybe 3 or 5 times a week.

I have FT'ed twice and have gotten deep on other occations

I like using the estimated chip stack as a guide as was said above and yes if you hit that mark you are usually higher in rankings because of some huge stacks and really small ones.

The one thing I always keep in mind and seems to help me is that you can only play the table you are at. You can't play the other chip leaders if they are not at your table so stop worring about stack size.

The one MTT i came in second and monied $2,000 ,the table I played the most time at had the lowest high stack size out of all the reamaining tables for most of the tournement (by at least a 1/3 ). I was worried about the average and stuff like that, but in the end I made it to the FT in about 5th place and there were at least 4 others from that earlier table that made it.
I guess I got stuck with a bunch of really good players and we all just picked off the new guys that showed up for a few hands before busting out. With each other we just traded chips back and forth.

[Monty9]

I just read and commented in another thread about PPs STEPs.

These are kind of like what we are talking about here on a very small scale.

You basically play to the repeat position 1-5. ( ITM ) then play for the win or 2nd position depending on step ( FT ).

I find myself playing tight till I reach the fall repeat number then turn it on and/or survive to win it. I think its kind of like and MTT but it only takes an hour.

[WildBobAA]

No, it's totally different, that's why there's an SNG and an MTT forum.