Playing for first

[Scuba Chuck]

I am always posting that it's a mistake to make the "I play for first attitude." Well, I wanted to post a hand where clearly that is right.

This is from memory.

Pokerstars

Hero: 3400
SB: 9000
BB: 1100

Edit: Blinds 200/400

Preflop: Hero is dealt QJo (1 spade, 1 club)
Hero limps, SB completes, BB raises to t1100 and is allin, hero calls, SB calls.

Flop: (t3300) 9T3 ~ 2 spades
button raises allin, hero calls...

critiques, thoughts?

[A10Chief]

At this point in the game, I'd say this isn't altogether bad. BB is probably holding Ax and trying to run a steal. Flop action sucks, but I think with the OESD, it's worth a shot, plus it's possible that a Q or J could still win you the pot. You're ITM already, the flop probably missed the BB, and the SB is trying to push you out, probably because he caught a small part of that flop and thinks he is ahead of BB. I'd probably draw at it. Besides, if you both lose to SB, you still finish 2nd because your stack was bigger at the beginning of the hand, right?

[ChrisBCritter]

I like it. Kinda tough call preflop maybe, what are the blinds at approx? You have a strong draw, not a bad place to take a chance. What are your reads on the other two??

[Scuba Chuck]

I like it. Kinda tough call preflop maybe, what are the blinds at approx? You have a strong draw, not a bad place to take a chance. What are your reads on the other two??

Edited to include blinds. Preflop is questionable.

Why don't you guess what the reads are? What do you think BB has preflop? What do you think SB has with his flop bet?

[ChrisBCritter]

Looking at it again, I don't like the pre-flop at all. At that stage I don't try to limp anything. I'm pulling a standard 3xBB raise there, putting the Shortstack AI if he wants to continue.

From the way it played out, I'm guessing the BB has Ax or Kx and just trying to get his luck going. SB(big stack) has any two and is just trying to take a big stack from you.

I don't play they way you did without reads though. period. And they are never easy to get from just one hand anyways. Gimme a break..

[grnydrowave2]

With an OESD and two overcards, your chances of winning this pot are ~56 (assuming top pair holds up). And with 1/3 of your stack invested, you could make a good case for calling. However, I think it would be correct to fold.

You could be up against flush draws, which leave you drawing dead if they hit. By calling, you are essentially taking a coinflip and risking a 3rd place finish. If the bigstack beats both you and the shortstack, thats a 2nd place finish. You should fold here on the chance that the shortstack busts out, leaving yourself an oppurtunity to finish 1st.

[Scuba Chuck]

Looking at it again, I don't like the pre-flop at all. At that stage I don't try to limp anything. I'm pulling a standard 3xBB raise there, putting the Shortstack AI if he wants to continue.

From the way it played out, I'm guessing the BB has Ax or Kx and just trying to get his luck going. SB(big stack) has any two and is just trying to take a big stack from you.

I don't play they way you did without reads though. period. And they are never easy to get from just one hand anyways. Gimme a break..

Hey, I am not trying to give you a hard time. IMO, I'm being nice, I'm trying to get you to think.

All the reads you need are in the OP.

Let's start with BB. BB has a hand that likely has value, and wants to make sure he maximizes his return. So, I would think he has a top 20% hand. Very likely two big cards, A9+, a pair.

Your turn, what does SB have?

Regarding PF: It's obviously questionable. The way I play QJ here depends on how bigstack plays. If he just completes, I'm in the hand the rest of the way. If he pushes preflop, I fold. If I was the BB in this situation, and it was folded to shorty as a SB, I would have called him with QJ here, so playing this hand here makes some sort of bassackwards logic (to me at least). Furthermore, knowing how to play postflop also helps in how to play this hand. This is why I think this hand is interesting to discuss, but only interesting if people are NOT gonna think. I'm not interested in leading the discussion.

[Scuba Chuck]

With an OESD and two overcards, your chances of winning this pot are ~56 (assuming top pair holds up). And with 1/3 of your stack invested, you could make a good case for calling. However, I think it would be correct to fold.

What does "~56" mean? Could you elaborate your thoughts on why you think it's correct to fold here?

You could be up against flush draws, which leave you drawing dead if they hit. By calling, you are essentially taking a coinflip and risking a 3rd place finish. If the bigstack beats both you and the shortstack, thats a 2nd place finish. You should fold here on the chance that the shortstack busts out, leaving yourself an oppurtunity to finish 1st.

How am I drawing dead if I'm up against a flush DRAW? Furthermore, if he has the flush draw, and hits, great, I get 2nd. (BTW, I seriously doubt he has a flush draw here most of the time, what's the point in bluffing a dry side pot when BB has moved allin preflop?)

I think what's important in the thinking about this hand here is to think about what SB has here. Once you figure this out, it makes the rest of the hand easier to 'figure out.'

I think you're looking at this too much as the glass is half empty. You've made every argument for why to play for second. But you haven't given enough weight to playing for first, IMO.

[Scuba Chuck]

And they are never easy to get from just one hand anyways.

Missed this statement the first time. Getting table reads from just one hand, many many times, is easy. This hand is a great example of one. It's easier when there's just 3 players. Furthermore, everything about this hand is systematic.

[mcatdog]

I would guess that the SB has 2-pair and is scared of all the draws on board.

[Scuba Chuck]

I would guess that the SB has 2-pair and is scared of all the draws on board.

Why do you give SB soooo much credit. He has revealed one of his hole cards. That is all.

[Demiparadigm]

I raise to 1200 preflop.
On the flop, easy call. If Big stack wins, we get 2nd, if we win, we have the chip lead, if small wins and we win the side pot, we have a good stack, The only bad situation is when small wins and we lose the sidepot.

[aislephive]

I would not have limped in here. I may have folded knowing that the SB was desperate and that the BB would call him down with anything. The play for first attitude works in a tournament, but second place isn't half bad either. And personally I'm waiting for the short stack to get eliminated before I get seriously involved. You still have some chips to go against the chip leader, and you'll need to double up once to be in the thick of things.

My approach with a short-stack on the bubble is to hang around as long as I can. Often times I scrape into second place and if my cards had help up I would have had a serious shot at winning. It seems that whenever I get it in with the best of it I always lose. Yesterday HU I had AJ vs QT, lost that. Then I had QQ vs AJ, he hit the flush. My AJ against QK, Queen on the river. One night I had two pair and all the money goes in on the turn, and the board pairs and counterfeits my two pair on the river and he wins. Oh well, that's poker.

[vqc]

And personally I'm waiting for the short stack to get eliminated before I get seriously involved.

My approach with a short-stack on the bubble is to hang around as long as I can.

I disagree greatly with both of those statements.
I think they are flat out wrong.

Statement 1) I think you may be too passive on the bubble and missing out on too many pushing opportunities.

Statement 2) You should be going BOOOOMMMMMMMM or bust here. No waiting around. (This is not contradictory to my previous statements about how I hate the phrase first or nothing. I am not advocating making -$EV plays). I think you may be passing up too many +EV pushes with this mentality.

[kashpot]

I have been playing since Aug. After reading post on this site and playing approx. six hours per day, I have learned alot. Recently, I have completed my first 100+ SNGs at Ultimatebet at the $1+.10 level under the screenname of gladi8tor. My ITM is 38%. Much of that success was due to reading Rippy's post on MTT & SNG strategy.
I say that to say, in this example, at least on UB the same stack pushes with any painted card. Aggression must be tempted, when the push comes I FOLD. Why? This situation becomes a coin flip that isnt to your best interest. Let him have the pot and move on to a hand that allows you to get your money in on better situations.
At the level that i have been playing, I do not fear being small stacked of 300-400 chips with the blinds at 30-60 (having come back to win tournies). To me, playing to win does not mean that you work hard to get to where you are to only muck it up on less than advantageous situation.

[aislephive]

And personally I'm waiting for the short stack to get eliminated before I get seriously involved.

My approach with a short-stack on the bubble is to hang around as long as I can.

I disagree greatly with both of those statements.
I think they are flat out wrong.

Statement 1) I think you may be too passive on the bubble and missing out on too many pushing opportunities.

Statement 2) You should be going BOOOOMMMMMMMM or bust here. No waiting around. (This is not contradictory to my previous statements about how I hate the phrase first or nothing. I am not advocating making -$EV plays). I think you may be passing up too many +EV pushes with this mentality.

At this point with the OESD and overcards it's an easy call, and my normal play here it raise to 1000. But we know the SB is probably going to push if we fold (it turns out he pushed no matter what), and we know the chip leader will call with almost anything. As for my bubble play, I am making very general statements. If I'm shortstacked on the bubble and I have 88 or AQ I push here easy if the blinds are worth it. But I'm not exactly looking for action neither. I have came back from huge chip defecits HU and evened the stacks and put myself in a position to win. But the point of the game has always been to make money, and I play for first, but I play to win money too. When I have a big stack on the bubble I'm relentlessly pounding the blinds, but shortstacked I can slowly build up my stack and wait for the other players to bust. That's just the way I play the bubble when I'm shortstacked.

[vqc]

wat exactly consitutes shortstack to u?
is it in relation to the other players or the blinds?

[aislephive]

wat exactly consitutes shortstack to u?
is it in relation to the other players or the blinds?

The blinds.

[vqc]

ok so inrelation to the blinds
when are u a shortie?

[aislephive]

ok so inrelation to the blinds
when are u a shortie?

When I have less than 1500 chips and we're at the 50-100 level that's when I feel short-stacked. Right here I'm looking for a spot to double up or I'll try a couple blind steals.

[pgil]

The chip leader has top pair (maybe the 9, but unlikely), most likely a J,Q, or K kicker. You call because the chip leader is almost certainly ahead of both you and the short stack, meaning you have a good shot at second if you dont hit, and a great shot at first if you do. That's my take on it.

[ChrisBCritter]

I would guess that the SB has 2-pair and is scared of all the draws on board.

Why do you give SB soooo much credit. He has revealed one of his hole cards. That is all.

If I put myself in the SB (overwhelming big stack) position, I'm making this move with a wide range of hands... from 32s to AA. Oh look, my 3 hit the flop!! Semi-bluff all in!! So to say that he revealed one of his cards is absolutely ridiculous. This hand is a culmination of all the hands that came before it, and I personally would never assume to make a read on a hand like this taken out of context.

I'm done trying to translate your guessing game here. I'm not fired up, if I tilted this easily I'm definitely playing the wrong game... Explain your logic in how someone can make this read in just one hand, and I'll try and determine if that could possibly ever work for me. And then to see if I could ever implement it in the heat of battle.

[Scuba Chuck]

To Kashpot: I started writing something else, but I just can't. WTF????

To all you preflop naysayers: Phooey. Feel free to be stuck in pushbot mode or whatever. If you raise to 1200, and bigstack moves allin, now what? I'm still aggressive ITM, but not stupid aggressive. Aislephive's points have some merit. This is a discussion for another time.

Back to the hand, I want to play this hand against shorty. Because there is a shorty, I don't want to play this hand against biggie. So what's the best line? Also, once shorty pushes, and BB had just completed, he's likely to just call. Preflop, I think too many of you are still in pushbot mode. This is an opportunity to change gears. And changing gears when the situations present themselves is an important aspect. ~ bah, think what you want.

I didn't want to discuss preflop.

[Scuba Chuck]

The chip leader has top pair (maybe the 9, but unlikely), most likely a J,Q, or K kicker. You call because the chip leader is almost certainly ahead of both you and the short stack, meaning you have a good shot at second if you dont hit, and a great shot at first if you do. That's my take on it.

Ding ding ding! We have a winner. Your hand range is dead on! So we have 11 clean outs, and maybe 14. If I was to discount my outs, I'd say we had 11 or 12 outs. With 4500 in deadchips in the pot, this is an easy easy call.

[Simius]

Reads aside, looking at this as an isolated case I'd be thinking of the thought processes that would warrant this betting and what the SB and BB would be thinking everyone else has.

BB:
At this point with that stack against 2 bigger stacks he would be looking to push with pretty much any playable hand, when he sees a limp and a completion it doesn't really make much difference considering he'd be pushing with the same range which would be any pair, Ax, paint or connectors of some kind.

SB:
With the big stack I know I can play a big range of hands and still be in a strong position even if it doesn't hit. Seeing the hero limp and then call the raise rather than reraise would make me think he doesn't have a made hand and would like to see what happens on the flop rather than push to isolate and risk a call. I would think that the Hero would have med/low pair or unpaired high cards and considers himeself to have a good chance against the BB but not necessarily a position of extreme confidence.

A call from the SB here suggests to me that he is in a similar position, his hand may not be best and did not warrant a PF raise but has enough potential to call hoping to attack Hero's stack on the flop.

--Flop--

BB sits and chews his fingernails....

SB:
Considering SB's preflop thoughts, it's likely he thought this would be a mediocre flop for Hero. Overcards to any pairs that would warrant just a call and in all likelyhood just a little low for his overcard holdings to have paired. Obviously he can't do anything about BB but if he does have a vunerable hand now is time to isolate it. If he had a solid hand then you'd expect a value bet here but the push to me would suggest SB has caught something from the flop and is pretty confident about being able to beat a med/low pair but with the T9 and 2 spades on the board wants to shut out any draws with the threat of possible elimination in 3rd.

As has already been pointed out above this to me would very strongly suggest SB has paired a T in his hand but the overbet would rule out T9 for 2 pair and TT (which would just about qualify for a call rather than raise PF), putting SB on anywhere from AT to JT. The call from there takes a sharp intake of breath, confidence in your betting pattern analysis and crossed fingers just in case.

This all sound reasonable?

[salsa4ever]

looking at some of the posts on this thread (obviously not talking about demi, vqc, scuba, etc. for whom I have the utmost respect) I can immediately see why it is said at $11-$55 most of ur +$EV comes from bubble / mini-bubble play and it may be +$EV to pass on marginally advantageous, high risk situations early on to make it to the end and exploit the even more advantageous situations.

"Playing for 1st" is bad mentality
"Playing for 2nd" is a bad mentality
Doing what will give you the most +$EV is the correct mentality.

I have a problem calling pre-flop in this situation: especially if I'm going to follow Scuba's line and fold to a bigstack push. Generally, I don't want to call, with the intention of folding to a push...

hang on - the hand history doesn't make sense... i presume hero is on the button? But on the flop it says button raises all in... and the shortie is BB or SB? The BB calls again after going all in? I can't really say anything definite about pre-flop because I'm confused by the hand history

But the flop call I totally agree with. There is absolutely no reason to fold. It's not because 'we're playing for 1st' - it's because the upside potential is huge, the likelihood of winning is good, and we still can finish 2nd even if bigstack drags the pot.

[Scuba Chuck]

I have a problem calling pre-flop in this situation: especially if I'm going to follow Scuba's line and fold to a bigstack push. Generally, I don't want to call, with the intention of folding to a push...

Just something to think about. How much equity is lost, overall, if I limp, and biggie pushes, and shorty and I fold? I think once you figure this out, you will be more enlightened.

I should add, I would never raise with QJo in this situation. I think it's limp or fold. If I raise to 1200, and bigstack pushes, you're probably looking at 3rd place more often than you should be. Or, if you fold, you've just leaked chips.

[Scuba Chuck]

Reads aside, looking at this as an isolated case I'd be thinking of the thought processes that would warrant this betting and what the SB and BB would be thinking everyone else has.

I know looking at one hand in a vacuum is difficult. I should have said in the OP that no reads are relevant in this hand. Everything you need to know is in the hand.

As has already been pointed out above this to me would very strongly suggest SB has paired a T in his hand but the overbet would rule out T9 for 2 pair and TT (which would just about qualify for a call rather than raise PF), putting SB on anywhere from AT to JT. The call from there takes a sharp intake of breath, confidence in your betting pattern analysis and crossed fingers just in case.

This all sound reasonable?

Simius, all of your thoughts are very sound. The one thing that can be corrected is that the likelihood of AT is very unlikely. If you wanted to add hands to the range, I'd move down, to something like 8T or 7T. As you adroitly indicated earlier, his hand wasn't good enough to raise preflop.

[Simius]

Just something to think about. How much equity is lost, overall, if I limp, and biggie pushes, and shorty and I fold? I think once you figure this out, you will be more enlightened.

If shorty folds he's an idiot, but I see your point and I do feel a little enlightened. That or I might still be drunk, it's hard to tell the difference sometimes.

[Scuba Chuck]

2+2 crosspost

I wrote in detail all of my thoughts there.

I think I need to re-establish some credibility there. I don't post there often enough anymore.

[a500lbgorilla]

I hate preflop.

My decision is always push or fold at this point and it really depends on how the myself and the table have been playing.

-'rilla

[Scuba Chuck]

I hate preflop.

My decision is always push or fold at this point and it really depends on how the myself and the table have been playing.

-'rilla

I used to think this way. In this post I talked about magnitudes of X. Food for thought.

[salsa4ever]

I have a problem calling pre-flop in this situation: especially if I'm going to follow Scuba's line and fold to a bigstack push. Generally, I don't want to call, with the intention of folding to a push...

Just something to think about. How much equity is lost, overall, if I limp, and biggie pushes, and shorty and I fold? I think once you figure this out, you will be more enlightened.

I should add, I would never raise with QJo in this situation. I think it's limp or fold. If I raise to 1200, and bigstack pushes, you're probably looking at 3rd place more often than you should be. Or, if you fold, you've just leaked chips.

I'm thinking, I'm thinking... but can u help me out?

I'd like to know whether in ur opinion there is a general rule of thumb that when blinds are so big, limp/fold is a bad line?

Then under what circumstances might it become a good line?

The best I can come up with now is that I don't want to fold, and i can't really raise, so I call? but isn't that fishthink?

[Scuba Chuck]

I have a problem calling pre-flop in this situation: especially if I'm going to follow Scuba's line and fold to a bigstack push. Generally, I don't want to call, with the intention of folding to a push...

Just something to think about. How much equity is lost, overall, if I limp, and biggie pushes, and shorty and I fold? I think once you figure this out, you will be more enlightened.

I should add, I would never raise with QJo in this situation. I think it's limp or fold. If I raise to 1200, and bigstack pushes, you're probably looking at 3rd place more often than you should be. Or, if you fold, you've just leaked chips.

I'm thinking, I'm thinking... but can u help me out?

I'd like to know whether in ur opinion there is a general rule of thumb that when blinds are so big, limp/fold is a bad line?

Then under what circumstances might it become a good line?

The best I can come up with now is that I don't want to fold, and i can't really raise, so I call? but isn't that fishthink?

I don't think there are any general rules in poker. In this situation, shortie has less than 3 BBs. My hand is above average. I am willing to challenge shortie, even as a 60/40 dog. But, I'm not foolish enough to challenge bigstack with this hand AND shortie in the game still.

My complete thoughts on this hand I posted on 2+2. FWIW, I was pleasantly surprised to see Lacky respond. On that forum, he is considered one of the best poker players. Not just SNGs, but poker. Tournament poker, limit poker, etc. It's not very often, that I see some of the real good players come out and say something positive like he did. It meant a lot to me.