The all in steal

[mouteut]

I was wondering what you guys think of the all in steal.

I usually use a big all in instead of 3X BB when i steal, especially when i am a low stack.

For example lets say blinds are 100/200 and i have 3000 stack. i am button and its folded to me. SB and BB are 1500 and 2000 stacks.

Instead of the standard 600 raise, i like to just move it ALL IN directly. I've had a lot more sucess stealing that way.

People simply doesn't want to risk their tourney on that 1 hand and they just fold. I usually end out getting called by AK with my pocket pair and its a coin flip.

Whenever i try to use the 3x BB raise, i will often get called/reraised and then im a bit in shit if my hand isn't very good and i have to fold and i am then spotted as a weak and people likes pushing me around.

Another example is lets say blinds are now 200/400. You have 2500 stack 4 handed and you are the button. BB is the chip leader with 4500. I get dealth something like 44/Ax or even worst and i just go ALL IN. Usually even the chip leader gets scared. however if i only do a 1200 raise, he will often call me or even push me since they sometimes think it is weak.

I know i am wrong and i would like to know why the 3x BB is better. I know it is letting you get away from the hand, but the odds to get pushed off with a 3x BB are way higher than with a ALL IN move. And people with soso hands (AJ AT, marginal hands(face cards), medium pair, low Ax) will usually fold to the all in, while they might call/push to the 3xBB.

A 3xBB on the button will be interpreted as a steal and the BB with A5o will often push, but if you just go ALL IN, its a lot harder for him to call.


Just yersterday, i built a 4K stack by doing this move and i then went a bit too wild and did it from UTG with 44 thinking a UTG all in gets a lot of respect from pockets and i still have 55% against the rest. The other chip leader called me with AK and his hand held up. But a 3x BB raise made no sense. I guess i could fold it but the odds of this working were great(i think i went from 1500 to 4000 just abusing steals)

NOTE: i also like showing it when i steal with real hands just to make sure my weaker hands will be more feared in the future.

Thanks

[nogenius]

When I'm under 10xBB, the all-in move is my only move when stealing or have a big hand.

[mouteut]

But what i'm saying is that even with 15 X BB(however with more than 15 i calm down), i still do it, while other players tend to bet 3X BB.

[pgil]

is every raise an AI, or just the steals? if you are raising 3xBB with AQ/AK, then pushing AI with worse hands, someone will pick up on this and will call you with a wider range of hands, increasing your variance greatly. I have found that 2.5-3XBB works for a few reasons, which can change depending on the stakes you play.
First, to a newer player who thinks they know what they are doing but have yet to learn about proper betting, it looks like a bet that wants a call, so they are more likely to fold. To a really bad/crazy/reckless player it looks like a weak bet, so is more likely to get called by a worse hand. To a tight player its too much for them to call without QQ+, and for an intermediate player its the standard raise which doesnt necessarily give any information about your hand. And to everybody else it shows that you like your hand enough to do more than just click the "raise" button, you had to move the slider around and everything, so you must have a good hand.
Plus, the added bonus is that it accomplishes all of this without putting too much at risk compared to what you can expect to gain. But, then again, I could be way off.

[siknd]

its not a bad idea, since its so easy to pot commit yourself with a regular sized raise. using a 3x raise with a 15 times stack for example, if both blinds call you have created a 9x pot with only a 12x stack.

however, you need to specific about who you target. dont try it agaist a big stack, or a loose player, or a short stack desperado, nor try it too frequently.

the big problem with this move is that it works every time except the last time, so make sure there is a real need to pick up chips, or you can be reasonably sure tht ppl will be inclined to fold because the bubble is near or the prize pool is about to rise etc.

personally i like to use the 2.5 standard raise at all times. you will achieve the same thing most of the time, and can get away if the BB comes over the top. it only has to work most of the time to be profitable, as opposed to every time if you are all in.

[vqc]

I was wondering what you guys think of the all in steal.

I usually use a big all in instead of 3X BB when i steal, especially when i am a low stack.

For example lets say blinds are 100/200 and i have 3000 stack. i am button and its folded to me. SB and BB are 1500 and 2000 stacks.

Instead of the standard 600 raise, i like to just move it ALL IN directly. I've had a lot more sucess stealing that way.

People simply doesn't want to risk their tourney on that 1 hand and they just fold. I usually end out getting called by AK with my pocket pair and its a coin flip.

Whenever i try to use the 3x BB raise, i will often get called/reraised and then im a bit in shit if my hand isn't very good and i have to fold and i am then spotted as a weak and people likes pushing me around.

Another example is lets say blinds are now 200/400. You have 2500 stack 4 handed and you are the button. BB is the chip leader with 4500. I get dealth something like 44/Ax or even worst and i just go ALL IN. Usually even the chip leader gets scared. however if i only do a 1200 raise, he will often call me or even push me since they sometimes think it is weak.

I know i am wrong and i would like to know why the 3x BB is better. I know it is letting you get away from the hand, but the odds to get pushed off with a 3x BB are way higher than with a ALL IN move. And people with soso hands (AJ AT, marginal hands(face cards), medium pair, low Ax) will usually fold to the all in, while they might call/push to the 3xBB.

A 3xBB on the button will be interpreted as a steal and the BB with A5o will often push, but if you just go ALL IN, its a lot harder for him to call.


Just yersterday, i built a 4K stack by doing this move and i then went a bit too wild and did it from UTG with 44 thinking a UTG all in gets a lot of respect from pockets and i still have 55% against the rest. The other chip leader called me with AK and his hand held up. But a 3x BB raise made no sense. I guess i could fold it but the odds of this working were great(i think i went from 1500 to 4000 just abusing steals)

NOTE: i also like showing it when i steal with real hands just to make sure my weaker hands will be more feared in the future.

Thanks

Risk and reward.
In ur scenario, would u risk 2k to win 300 chips?
Would u risk 3k to win 300 chips
would u risk 3k to 2k chips?

[bigred]

ICM calculator suggests any allin steal with anything greater than 10BB is a -EV move.

[mouteut]

i risk 2K to win 300:

75% i win 300
15% i loose the tourney
10% i double up

seems good to me

However as pgil says....
I think the 3x BB steal have a lot more success against strong solid players of higher buy ins than against crazy/fish/ loose players of lower buy ins.

Also as siknd says, i don't do this against anyone. If my opponement is known to be very loose/fishy i won't do it with a trash hand. And i won't do it a to desesperate BB. I raise all in for 2K chips against 2K chips stack, not 500 chips stacks.

And to answer pgil, i do it with every hands to mix up(and i show good hands). I won't do 3xBB here, 8x BB here, its always all in unless the stacks are very deep(more than 15 BB)

Thanks for replies

[bigred]

Honestly, I think your thinking is mathematically flawed but I don't have the credentials to back it up. All I can say is with greater than 10BB a raise is more effective and a better move in the long run. I'm waiting for a statistics guru to set this one straight.

[mouteut]

I'm pretty sure a well timed steal done with correct cards against correct opponements in correct position is going to have at least 75% sucess rate if all of these things are done:

#1 very few players are left to act and its folded to you
#2 There are no low stacks who are desesperate left to act
#3 the BB and SB are as deep as you and they're not fishy maniac
#4 Your image is not too crazy

a few times you will run into TT JJ QQ KK AA AK AQ, but i don't think that it is any less than 75%.

[siknd]

personally, maybe because im a cash game guy at heart, i just like to play flops. get the info the flop gives you and reduce the luck factor. remember that by going all in, you are essentially giving up your positional advantage. take the flop, the gap theory will protect you most times (both of you will miss more often than not).

[mouteut]

people will often either fold to your 3x BB or reraise you all in anyways. Even if they call, i don't think 15 BB deep gives you a lot of room on the flop......a big continuation bet and if any resistance he has a hand and your forced to fold whitout one....

I don't believe in solid post flop poker 15 BB deep

Note that my main point is that solid opponement will probably reraise most of time. maybe i'm wrong on this, but i think it is how its played 15 BB deep

[DaNutsInYoEye]

I don't believe in solid post flop poker 15 BB deep

You can still play plenty of poker with 15BB.

[mouteut]

Yea ok.... One player raise 3x BB, the other calls
(already we see theres nearly no room for reraising since if its done theres no post flop play)

then both player have 12 BB left on 6 BB pot.

One of em decide to continuation bet by betting the pot(6BB)...he has 6 BB left and hes seriously pot commited. The other decides to call or not.

I don't think that is "solid post flop poker"

Theres no room for any sort of move.

[DaNutsInYoEye]

Yea ok.... One player raise 3x BB, the other calls
(already we see theres nearly no room for reraising since if its done theres no post flop play)

then both player have 12 BB left on 6 BB pot.

One of em decide to continuation bet by betting the pot(6BB)...he has 6 BB left and hes seriously pot commited. The other decides to call or not.

I don't think that is "solid post flop poker"

Theres no room for any sort of move.

No, it's generally not solid post flop poker if you miss the flop but decide to bet 1/2 your stack on a continuation bet. Considering the stack sizes, a 4X BB bet on the flop would usually have the same effect as a 6X bet, but allow you to get away from it if you had to and still have 8 BB.

[salsa4ever]

decide if you're gonna call if u were re-raised all in.

if you're looking at a hand like 66, you probably would, so you might as well just push it. If it's 74o, that's different. But i'd only steal with 74o if I was really desperate in which case I don't have enuf chips except to push.

So I agree. I Push. The only reason not to push is if you're looking at a fairly crap hand that has some value in seeing the flop (say a J9). And you got a read that you can steal. I actually do raise less with my large pockets (I usually push AK: wanna see 5 cards); I don't think my opponents are smart enuf to work it out - but if I do show down a big hand having done a 3x raise, I won't push-steal until blind grow big and I'm at 10BB again.

[DLC11]

ICM calculator suggests any allin steal with anything greater than 10BB is a -EV move.

Not to get to off subject here, but I have a question about this...

Let's say you have 1150 in chips and the blinds are at 50/100. You are on the button,it's been folded to you, and you have KQo. Generally speaking, is that an all-in move or a 3-4 times the BB raise?

The reason I ask is because if you raise that and miss the flop, you are pretty much done. It would put you at around 800 chips, and you lose the power of the all-in steal.

[nogenius]

ICM calculator suggests any allin steal with anything greater than 10BB is a -EV move.

Not to get to off subject here, but I have a question about this...

Let's say you have 1150 in chips and the blinds are at 50/100. You are on the button,it's been folded to you, and you have KQo. Generally speaking, is that an all-in move or a 3-4 times the BB raise?

The reason I ask is because if you raise that and miss the flop, you are pretty much done. It would put you at around 800 chips, and you lose the power of the all-in steal.

I raise 2.5x BB there.

[MAX]

I'm pretty sure a well timed steal done with correct cards against correct opponements in correct position is going to have at least 75% sucess rate if all of these things are done:

#1 very few players are left to act and its folded to you
#2 There are no low stacks who are desesperate left to act
#3 the BB and SB are as deep as you and they're not fishy maniac
#4 Your image is not too crazy

a few times you will run into TT JJ QQ KK AA AK AQ, but i don't think that it is any less than 75%.

If this is the case, then a 3bb raise ought to work just fine. If they push over you then it will be because you are up against a strong hand and you didn't have to waste your whole stack to find out. Pushing on a steal with a healthy stack, into other healthy stacks is risking too much to gain too little in an SnG. None of the players listed above will try to reraise you on a steal, especially if you have a reasonable image. My question is why try to steal in this situation at all?

[vqc]

ICM calculator suggests any allin steal with anything greater than 10BB is a -EV move.

ICM says no such thing.

[vqc]

Yea ok.... One player raise 3x BB, the other calls
(already we see theres nearly no room for reraising since if its done theres no post flop play)

then both player have 12 BB left on 6 BB pot.

One of em decide to continuation bet by betting the pot(6BB)...he has 6 BB left and hes seriously pot commited. The other decides to call or not.

I don't think that is "solid post flop poker"

Theres no room for any sort of move.

you are being too mechanical.

2.5xBB preflop
and pick ur stop for 1/2 pot bet somewhere postflop.
Yes it works.

[vqc]

ICM calculator suggests any allin steal with anything greater than 10BB is a -EV move.

Not to get to off subject here, but I have a question about this...

Let's say you have 1150 in chips and the blinds are at 50/100. You are on the button,it's been folded to you, and you have KQo. Generally speaking, is that an all-in move or a 3-4 times the BB raise?

The reason I ask is because if you raise that and miss the flop, you are pretty much done. It would put you at around 800 chips, and you lose the power of the all-in steal.

I raise 2.5x BB there.

I disagree
I dont like raising here.
I could be wrong.

[gabe]

ICM calculator suggests any allin steal with anything greater than 10BB is a -EV move.

your crazy.

decide if you're gonna call if u were re-raised all in.

if you're looking at a hand like 66, you probably would, so you might as well just push it. If it's 74o, that's different. But i'd only steal with 74o if I was really desperate in which case I don't have enuf chips except to push.

So I agree. I Push. The only reason not to push is if you're looking at a fairly crap hand that has some value in seeing the flop (say a J9). And you got a read that you can steal. I actually do raise less with my large pockets (I usually push AK: wanna see 5 cards); I don't think my opponents are smart enuf to work it out - but if I do show down a big hand having done a 3x raise, I won't push-steal until blind grow big and I'm at 10BB again.

good post.

if you are planning on calling a push from them anyway, i push (unless you have a hand that wants action, like aa-kk).

[gabe]

also, a good time to do the allin steal with medium stacks behind you is when the BB is sitting out. that way they can't resteal from you.

[kashpot]

I have been playing sng on a regular basis as of late; and I use the all in steal, whenever I become short stacked and in the late positions. It has been my experience that very few players are willing to come back at you unless they have AA,AK and maybe KK. I will push with Ax anything and than show my hand. The idea is that you had better have a dominant hand because I will.

I use the move partially as table image and partially as a means of snatching chips if I do get called. I more inclined to attack medium stacks and large stacks. With AA thru AJ, its me gunning at everyone. With AT-Ax, I go at the short to medium stacks. You got to be careful of a player that has shown himself to be an aggressive player who lost an allin. Because this guy is just looking for an opportunity to recoup chips he lost earlier. Know your player.

[siknd]

and MAYBE KK? lol. where do you play your sngs?