standard fold? (50nl 6max)

[journey075]

Game #1428901083: Hold'em NL ($0.25/$0.50) - 2005/11/26 - 21:10:22 (ET)
Table "Tansy" Seat 4 is the button.
Seat 1: mr john ($30.52 in chips)
Seat 2: Holdemnig ($26.51 in chips)
Seat 4: hyperbob ($26.71 in chips)
Seat 5: Brooksy8 ($83.37 in chips)
Seat 6: firewire ($49.50 in chips)
Brooksy8: posts small blind $0.25
firewire: posts big blind $0.50
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to firewire [Jc Kh]
mr john: folds
Holdemnig: calls $0.50
hyperbob: folds
Brooksy8: calls $0.25
firewire: checks
----- FLOP ----- [Qs Td Th]
Brooksy8: bets $0.50
firewire: calls $0.50
Holdemnig: calls $0.50
----- TURN ----- [Qs Td Th][4c]
Brooksy8: bets $0.50
firewire: calls $0.50
Holdemnig: calls $0.50
----- RIVER ----- [Qs Td Th 4c][As]
Brooksy8: bets $0.50
firewire: raises to $4
Holdemnig: raises to $25.01 and is all-in
Brooksy8: folds
firewire: folds
Returned uncalled bets $21.01 to Holdemnig
Holdemnig: doesn't show hand
Holdemnig collected $12.35 from Main pot
----- SUMMARY -----
Total pot $13 Main pot $12.35 Rake $0.65
Board [Qs Td Th 4c As]
Seat 1: mr john folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: hyperbob (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Brooksy8 (small blind) folded on the River
Seat 6: firewire (big blind) folded on the River
****HAND ENDS****



edit: no reads, played 9 hands with the guy.

[mouteut]

I think most of the time you are beat here

Good fold

If he only had one pair or two pair he probably cold call you, i dont see why he would go all in like this.

I put him on TQ or maybe AQ

[Cocco_Bill]

I think its important to take down a lot of 'unwanted' pots in a 5 handed game. You should start betting those draws!

[outphase]

I think most of the time you are beat here

Good fold

If he only had one pair or two pair he probably cold call you, i dont see why he would go all in like this.

I put him on TQ or maybe AQ

You put him on one hand that beats you and one hand that doesn't... how do you make a decision based on that?

[rubixstreub]

I don't understand why you're even calling this down for the straight and then when someone offers their stack you fold... I don't know about you, but I play straights for stacks. If he flips AT, QT, or 44 that's unfortunate.... disagree?

[ChrisBCritter]

Raise the flop (Where do I stand with my OESD??) Min-bets suck.

Raise the Turn, see above.

Depending on what you know from above, You hit your straight and take a good pot. At 50NL rockgardens, this is a tough call as played, but do you not think that someone with just a T would play this the same?? I don't think I give credit for the boat here and call. You'd probably split the pot with another guy having KJo...

[mxiu]

Why raise the flop/turn? You're getting a cheap draw, don't make it expensive. I'm pretty sure you're ahead here most of the time. I don't see the opps reasoning for pushing all-in with a hand that beats you. A boat more than likely extracts value from Ax rather than pushing you off.

[ChrisBCritter]

Why raise the flop/turn? You're getting a cheap draw, don't make it expensive. I'm pretty sure you're ahead here most of the time. I don't see the opps reasoning for pushing all-in with a hand that beats you. A boat more than likely extracts value from Ax rather than pushing you off.

Because my opps will PUT me on a draw when I just call the min bet. I don't like it when someone else knows what I have for cards. Someone with a made hand here will probably tell me what's up when I pot the flop, then I can decide what to do with my draw. With a paired board, I want to know if I hit my draw, will it still be any good?? If they are calling/raising the flop/turn bets, then go AI on the river, I can be SURE that I'm beat and make the correct fold... KNOWING that I did.

The way that this hand was played, you cannot be sure if you were beat or not when he goes AI... did he slow play the boat or trips (or worse)?? One you beat, the other not. PF tells you nothing, flop tells you nothing, turn tells you nothing, then suddenly AI re-raise which tells you what?? Nothing.

So my line goes:
FLOP:
Raise the Flop to pot (only 1.50)... anybody with 44 will fold here. anyone who missed the flop will probably fold here (donkey's excluded). Re-raises will fold me here most likely. I get out of my draw cheaply. Calls deserve attention based on previous experience (reads), would the caller(s) slow play monsters? or are they drawing/have a Q?
Turn:
Pot will be between $4.5 -$6 now. UTG min-bets again, does this indicate strength or weakness from him?? Re-raise to 1/2 or 3/4 pot. Anyone who calls should guess that you have a T, a Q, or at the least, have no idea that you are drawing to the straight. Re-raises here and again I can fold relatively cheaply.
River:
Now, depending on who called or folded we have a nice chunky pot for the river ($12-15), and hopefully only one opponent that you have an Idea of what he has, and he will think that you have at the least a T. So you put out a blocking bet on the river($8-10), and if he re-raises AI, you are likely beat and can conserve the rest of your stack. (only lost $10-15). If he calls, then you showdown and win probably 90% of the time, He folds you win!

[mxiu]

So you raise the flop 1.50, then you get re-raised by Tx and you fold. You'll end up losing $2, when you could've just called, getting really good odds to draw a straight and break his hand if his goes unimproved.

[ChrisBCritter]

So you raise the flop 1.50, then you get re-raised by Tx and you fold. You'll end up losing $2, when you could've just called, getting really good odds to draw a straight and break his hand if his goes unimproved.

So when in this hand do you realize that he has Tx and not a boat?? This board is WAY too dangerous to assume that a straight will take it down even if it hits... I would also gander that some of my outs are dirty also (AT comes to mind...) I'm happy folding this for $2, instead of playing it as played and losing $5... That way I'm not being bluffed on the river when I don't know where I stand. Do you actually call this river as played?? What do you think our Villian has here??

[mxiu]

Tx, Ax even, no boat. I gave me reasons earlier about why the opp doesn't have a boat. You'd be ahead more than 50% of the time in this situation.

[ChrisBCritter]

Tx, Ax even, no boat. I gave me reasons earlier about why the opp doesn't have a boat. You'd be ahead more than 50% of the time in this situation.

??? Can you highlight those reasonS for me?? A boat will ALWAYS value bet here?? I think not.

If I'm the villian here with TQ (hypothetically) and I flop the NUTZ (normally people aren't slowplaying QQ PF), and I see two others drawing with a weak bet, I'm gonna let them try to complete their draws. If I just had a T, then I'm definitely betting the flop harder trying to chase away any drawers... Hmm a min bet on the turn with that 4... darn, hopefully the river will help them... COOL an Ace, that completes a draw for sure!!! Ohh, somebody finally raised, they must like their hand somewhat, why else try to over bet this baby pot like that?? (Personally here I would min raise, or just a little more) But an AI is not a bad move hoping that his completed draw is strong and he pays my Boat off. only losing to another higher boat, which I would pay off every time...

We could argue about this till our fingers are sore, but the fact of the matter is you only have an IDEA that we would win this 50% of the time. Seven different hands beat us (AT, QT, 44 are likely) (AA,QQ, TT, T4 are unlikely) Tx or a bluff is the only type of hand that would likely make this move that we beat.

If I have a strait on a paired board, I want to be able to keep the pot size managable, if it starts getting crazy, like this did at the end, then I'm looking at a 50% chance for my stack, and I'm not gambling without better odds than that.

Another point not mentioned, is that this is played at $50NL which is notoriously "rockier" than $25NL and $100NL with smarter players having "graduated" from $25NL. If this was at $25NL, I'd probably call the river AI, knowing that the fish are more plentiful there.

[Rondavu]

Without a read you fold, because this is how a full house takes your stack. It's standard to act passive until the river and push. Often you are in a trap hand here. Get away.

Good players will tell you this is how they do.