Respect the Limp Reraise ... unless you don't want to

[LeFou]

This is why I don't respect reraises. This is a bullcrap play, and I see it minimum five times every tourney. The limp reraise -- 3/5 times it's with some crappy hand like this.

So, no... sorry, I'm not giving people credit for big hands here. This is killing me in these 45s and 27s

Why don't I fold preflop? B/c I know exactly what I need in order to win; thankfully, I get it. yes, I can and will lay down if I miss.

PokerStars Game #3297159046: Tournament #16326106, Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2005/12/10 - 18:30:21 (ET)
Table '16326106 2' Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: jimbob82 (2750 in chips)
Seat 2: ccamp63 (7855 in chips)
Seat 4: ebbhead (4825 in chips)
Seat 7: thecanmann (4445 in chips)
Seat 8: NuWere (1890 in chips)
Seat 9: Corstyles (3210 in chips)
ccamp63: posts small blind 50
ebbhead: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to NuWere [Tc Jd]
thecanmann: calls 100
NuWere: raises 400 to 500
Corstyles: folds
jimbob82: folds
ccamp63: folds
ebbhead: folds
thecanmann: raises 700 to 1200
NuWere: calls 700
*** FLOP *** [3c Jc 9c]
thecanmann: bets 700
NuWere: calls 690 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [3c Jc 9c] [Kh]
*** RIVER *** [3c Jc 9c Kh] [9s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
thecanmann: shows [Kd Ah] (two pair, Kings and Nines)
NuWere: shows [Tc Jd] (two pair, Jacks and Nines)
thecanmann collected 3930 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3930 | Rake 0
Board [3c Jc 9c Kh 9s]
Seat 1: jimbob82 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: ccamp63 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: ebbhead (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: thecanmann showed [Kd Ah] and won (3930) with two pair, Kings and Nines
Seat 8: NuWere showed [Tc Jd] and lost with two pair, Jacks and Nines
Seat 9: Corstyles folded before Flop (didn't bet)

[zenbitz]

How is AK 6-handed not a big hand?

U got pwnt.

[LeFou]

we were 8handed. i got it head up for him. i don't understand his play at all.
i didn't like making the call, but i like rolling over every time someone raises even less. i had a Very Tight image in here on account of getting weak cards.
meh...

[WhiteFingers]

i am not sure i am understanding this post properly.
What are you trying to say???
I think the problem with this hand is raising with the j10 from early position did you have reads? Has he been bullying the table/making plays like this before.
Please explain what point you are making, i am confused.

[stak14]

He had the best hand when he put in the raise preflop.

Then you sucked out on him and are upset because he resucked on the turn?

Also, you state you "knew exactly waht you needed to win and could get away from it if you had to." do you really want to put in that many of your chips and then fold if you miss? ( which, I might add, will happen much more frequently than you hit.)

Plus the range for a limp reraise is usually pretty high, this time you got lucky and had 2 live cards, you won't always be lucky.

I don't like this kind of play at all.

Stak

[LeFou]

The "point" here is that I see haywire aggression like this all through these SNGs starting level III or so. So far it seems like you've got to:

-hang out until you catch a monster
or
-make a stand with something less-than-ideal. As here. (I think). The point here IS that I had two live cards and was pretty certain of it. K5s etc. are garbage in such a spot.

Naturally, I do fine in the ones where I double/triple up by level 3. The ones where I don't are very frustrating, and always seem to end like this.

[zenbitz]

I hate limpers with shallow stacks in SNGs too... but I don't like JTo that much. Just fold pre-flop, and don't steal without opening the pot unless you have to, or are the big stack.

Is this a 2-table or 3-table... what buy in?

And I still count 6 players.

The reason he can make this move with AK.. or AJ or 88 or what have you is that he outstacks you > 2:1.

I think when you are the short stack you have pretty forfeited the option of being cute. raising a limper 4x with 4 left to act with JT... is just cute. If you have to make a move, push.

You don't need a monster, but you're way better off opening a pot than trying to wrestle it away from this guy.

[Aplomado]

Why don't I fold preflop? B/c I know exactly what I need in order to win; thankfully, I get it. yes, I can and will lay down if I miss.

With 2/3rds of your stack already in the pot preflop?

[aislephive]

AK is a monster hand at a full table, let alone 6 handed. I don't understand what you are talking about. He limped UTG with a big hand, you raised with JTo in EP (very suspect play as a shortstack), he comes over the top and you call? What hands can you possibly be in good shape against? You are very lucky that he didn't turn up a big pocket pair.

[vqc]

The "point" here is that I see haywire aggression like this all through these SNGs starting level III or so. So far it seems like you've got to:

-hang out until you catch a monster
or
-make a stand with something less-than-ideal. As here. (I think). The point here IS that I had two live cards and was pretty certain of it. K5s etc. are garbage in such a spot.

Naturally, I do fine in the ones where I double/triple up by level 3. The ones where I don't are very frustrating, and always seem to end like this.

Yes IM confused by his play too, he shoudlve just pushed preflop and beat u htere. (in repsonse to ur first post)

And no in a SNG u do not need to catch monsters, and you do not need to make stands with less than ideal hands.

Seriously, i think this is a bad play
Ur stack is way deep for this.
Im so confused on ur 5xBB raise, if there is any misapplied aggression here, are u sure its not u?

U shurnk ur stack down, from 18xBB to 7xBB preflop. WIth JT.

Ur really goin gto have to in depth with ur explanation here.
Were u making a stand against a UTG limper?
Making a stand against a Limp Reraiser?
DId u have to make a 5xBB raise to get ur point acrross?
DId you forget to factor in ur stack size here?
Do u think that hes really paying attention to ur image?

[LeFou]

screw it; i think i was just pissed about him catching a king.
i got a bunch of my chips in knowing i was behind. this was because i needed a double up or i was going to be blinded to death.
i caught just what i needed to double up, put the chips in, and he caught 4-outer (Ac and Kc give me the pot)
I'm REALLY frustrated by the crap people pull in the $5 and $10 45s. The limp reraise means A5o as often as it means AA.

[vqc]

screw it; i think i was just pissed about him catching a king.
i got a bunch of my chips in knowing i was behind. this was because i needed a double up or i was going to be blinded to death.
i caught just what i needed to double up, put the chips in, and he caught 4-outer (Ac and Kc give me the pot)
I'm REALLY frustrated by the crap people pull in the $5 and $10 45s. The limp reraise means A5o as often as it means AA.

ur stack seemed fine to be at this point, i didnt htink u needed to fight for a double up anytime soon.

[aislephive]

screw it; i think i was just pissed about him catching a king.
i got a bunch of my chips in knowing i was behind. this was because i needed a double up or i was going to be blinded to death.
i caught just what i needed to double up, put the chips in, and he caught 4-outer (Ac and Kc give me the pot)
I'm REALLY frustrated by the crap people pull in the $5 and $10 45s. The limp reraise means A5o as often as it means AA.

Well if it makes you feel any better, you were a dog to A5o too. =)

[Aplomado]

ur stack seemed fine to be at this point, i didnt htink u needed to fight for a double up anytime soon.

It almost seems like we're talking about different hands and he accidentally posted the wrong hand.

Take:
"we were 8handed." (with 6 people left in the sng)
"this was because i needed a double up or i was going to be blinded to death." (with 18xBB)

[KY_Ace]

You had 1890, when you put in 500 and he makes it 1200, he's bet half of your remaining 1390. When he puts you all in on the flop you're getting more than 4-to-1, even if you both miss the flop and he shows you his AK(theoretically, I know you can't do this online) you have the pot odds to call and try to pair one of your cards. Essentially, when you call his 700 chip re-raise you are calling 1390. 1390 to make 2390. You have to win 37% of the time to make this a positive expectation play. This play might be right vs AK in a cash game, but in a tournament the chips you have are worth more than the chips you don't have(which could justify you to fold the JT when you miss), and you might be better off passing on this one and investing your chips in a blind steal later on. With 14x the BB you'll get some good opportunities before you get blinded out.

I have to agree with the others that the initial raise was a little reckless, I'd be more worried about the players behind me than the limper, I don't like like to raise any weak hands with 3 or more players + the blinds to act after me, there's usually at least 1 big hand out there.

[Sprayed]

I have to agree, why raise the hand to begin with? Lay it down to the reraise UTG. Just because you have seen people reraising UTG with crap hands in other tourneys doesn't mean that he has crap this time. Respect it and get out.

[Rondavu]

I don't see the limp reraise being abused as often as the reraise isolation with a low pocket. Some douche has 55 and buys everyone out against your AK and then punches the flop.

[Werddown]

Nowhere near being blinded out here.

I think this is just a case of tilt / impatience.

You have to wait for the right opportunity to steal, or get all your chips in with a premium hand and hope to double or even triple up.

Its all about surviving until you get your card rush. I learned that from soupie!

[storm75m]

Naturally, I do fine in the ones where I double/triple up by level 3. The ones where I don't are very frustrating, and always seem to end like this.
...
i got a bunch of my chips in knowing i was behind. this was because i needed a double up or i was going to be blinded to death.

Impatience, my friend... you are in awesome shape, and shouldn't feel like you have to play JACK SHT until you have 10BB or less... Learn how to become a good push/fold monkey when the blinds are big compared to your stack, and things'll change... prolly 80% of the SNG's I win are the ones where I don't even win a significant pot until we're down to 5 handed and blinds are huge...