Call or Fold?

[Sprayed]

My read is that toddstl is very loose and technobabble is somewhat solid and not really loose. I am thinking that toddstl doesn't want me to call. What's your play?

PokerStars Game #3305513440: Tournament #16033533, Hold'em No Limit - Level V
(75/150) - 2005/12/11 - 15:54:50 (ET)
Table '16033533 71' Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: pidepiper24 (1700 in chips)
Seat 2: farbs42 (1160 in chips)
Seat 3: TheMout (1415 in chips)
Seat 4: WillieDM3 (7505 in chips)
Seat 5: toddstl (3780 in chips)
Seat 6: Technobabble (12420 in chips)
Seat 7: xarbar (1450 in chips)
Seat 8: bobrsny (2505 in chips)
Seat 9: Sprayed (3290 in chips)
WillieDM3: posts small blind 75
toddstl: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Sprayed [Jh Jc]
Technobabble: raises 300 to 450
xarbar: folds
bobrsny: folds
Sprayed: calls 450
pidepiper24: folds
farbs42: folds
TheMout: folds
WillieDM3: folds
toddstl: calls 300
*** FLOP *** [9d 6h 9h]
toddstl: checks
Technobabble: bets 450
Sprayed: calls 450
toddstl: raises 2880 to 3330 and is all-in
Technobabble: folds

[chardrian]

This is a tough one I'd say and a lot of the toughness comes from how u played it on the flop. I would have reraised on that flop. Since you just called it is hard to know whether techno has either of the draws and is on a semi-bluff, whether he is just bluffing, or whether he has the 9. You would think he would just call with the 9 there, but there are a lot of draws and with two callers in front he might be accurately thinking that an overpair will call. It's a real nice chance to double up... but it's also a nice shot to get knocked out. I think I usually go for the chance at getting the deep stack here.

[K2 the ArmA]

ewwww you put yourself in a pickle, id just throw it away

[Sprayed]

This is a tough one I'd say and a lot of the toughness comes from how u played it on the flop. I would have reraised on that flop. Since you just called it is hard to know whether techno has either of the draws and is on a semi-bluff, whether he is just bluffing, or whether he has the 9. You would think he would just call with the 9 there, but there are a lot of draws and with two callers in front he might be accurately thinking that an overpair will call. It's a real nice chance to double up... but it's also a nice shot to get knocked out. I think I usually go for the chance at getting the deep stack here.

I was going to reraise, but I was concerned with all of the other players behind me. I was also thinking AA UTG, but I guess the reraise would have told me that if he then came over the top of me.

[silverfist]

I like to reraise with jacks preflop, just to avoid situations like this. Sure, I'm I get pushed back, I need to fold, but at least I don't lose all my chips after the flop with an overpair. If there are no overcards on the flop and I wasn't pushed preflop, I just ram and jam, since I'm now probably not facing AA or KK. QQ is an issue, but not that often. Plus, the villain with QQ is now scared I have AA or KK.

On that flop, though, I think you need to raise the bet. He could have anything, and you need to slap his hand away from your cookies. If you get reraised, you know you're toast. If he doesn't, you win, and that's always nice. The problem here is that the third player saw the weak betting and is putting you in a nice squeeze. I think given that he just pushed over two players, you need to fold here. He either has a better pair than you or three nines. He could be on a post-flop-squeeze-play-semi-bluff with a heart draw, but most people aren't that sophisticated and/or insane.

[chardrian]

He could be on a post-flop-squeeze-play-semi-bluff with a heart draw, but most people aren't that sophisticated and/or insane.

If it's the nut flush draw, there are many, many people who would push here - many players fail to discount flush outs on a paired board.

[zenbitz]

A check raise into a big stack AND a equal stack is a pretty strong bet, and would be pretty quite a semi-bluff with a flush draw.

It's hard to say how much credit to give the guy but a good tough player might realize that his big bet looks like the nut flush draw and make it with a 9 or over pair. There is only 1 over pair you beat - TT.

The weird thing is that that flop likely hits no one except 2 hearts or 66. Unless the guy is so loose he calls with T9 or something.

I think this is very close either way. I would go with my gut. I should say that if Techno was yet to act, I think it's a clear fold.

[Sprayed]

Not to make this a bad beat by any means, because I am not bitter. But if you were in his shoes would you have played it the way he did if you had the following?

Sprayed: calls 2390 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [9d 6h 9h] [8d]
*** RIVER *** [9d 6h 9h 8d] [Tc]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
toddstl: shows [8h 7d] (a straight, Six to Ten)
Sprayed: shows [Jh Jc] (two pair, Jacks and Nines)
toddstl collected 7555 from pot

Is this a donk play and got lucky or is this the type of play that you put on people that you believe have a big pair or missed the flop with overs? Would you call the pre-flop raises out of the bb with 87o? I would think that you would have to be pretty laggy to play it.

[zenbitz]

Ah, the check-raise all-in semi-bluff. It's not a bad move if only overpairs call you. Since the flop is 99X, and there was a PFR, hard to put anyone on a 9 here.

However, I would almost never call from the BB with 87o and that shallow of a stack. I might push to resteal, but not call against original raiser and another caller.

[KoRnholio]

The BB's call wasn't all that bad. 300 more into a pot of 1125 is decent odds, even for that pitiful holding.

Even not knowing the results, I would raise JJ preflop here. You can isoltate the raisor and see how much he likes his hand out of position. Even if he's tight that bet could be AJ-AK, KQ, middle pair. Just calling (especially in middle position) just invites more people to come see a flop.

If it had been folded to you and you were in the cutoff or button just calling would be less of a problem, but opting for a raise would still be better IMO. The last thing you want with a good pocket pair is to let 3-4 people see a flop with even one overcard in it.

[JeffreyGB]

It doesn't look like you're very deep in the tournament here. Given that, I probably just call preflop. More than likely, I'm pushing that flop in hopes that a heart draw does call me. Even if not (for instance, you said you were worried about AA from the UTG raise), clarify by reraising there - even a minraise works. If he comes over the top you fold [neglecting reads]; if he calls you can trust you're good. Calling the flop sets you up for a nasty turn.

No way I put anyone on the 9 here, so I'm probably calling the push from him if I for some reason smooth call. Even if he had a 9, that's a fairly odd play. I'd expect it from related draws MORE than I would from made hands. Next time though, think about how you're playing it before you decide to call the flop bet.

You said you were going to reraise, but were concerned about the players behind you. Did you mean preflop or on the flop? If you were concerned about them on the flop, then that means you should have been thinking about what you'd do.

[Sprayed]

You said you were going to reraise, but were concerned about the players behind you. Did you mean preflop or on the flop? If you were concerned about them on the flop, then that means you should have been thinking about what you'd do.

I was worried pre-flop of a reraise. I did have the notion to push on the flop as well. But, since it was fairly early I wanted to see the turn. I didn't expect this dude to go all in against two players. It's just an issue of me not being the aggressor and succumbing to other's aggression.

[Aquinas]

I sortof like his push. There is a good chance ya'll will put him on an overpair and fold, and otherwise, he has a nice draw. Nice call by the way. Mind u if the board didn't have a flush draw out, I really like the play.

edit: I take it back--I thought it was the utg player that pushed. Awful push from the late position player, and autocall from u.

[Sprayed]

edit: I take it back--I thought it was the utg player that pushed. Awful push from the late position player, and autocall from u.

Are you saying awful auto call? I was thinking that if he had a bigger hand than me, he would have reraised out of the bb pre-flop to get HU. That's why I called. What hands would he smooth call from the bb that would have a 9? 99 or A9s? Apparently, he was willing to call with connectors. Also, those are some crazy odds for him to hit quads if he has 99. If he is on a draw or hits trips/quads so be it. I thought I made a decent call on the flop, but should have reraised pre. I guess it's a case of being conservative or accumulator.

[silverfist]

Ah, the check-raise all-in semi-bluff. It's not a bad move if only overpairs call you. Since the flop is 99X, and there was a PFR, hard to put anyone on a 9 here.

However, I would almost never call from the BB with 87o and that shallow of a stack. I might push to resteal, but not call against original raiser and another caller.

I love that play. Did you see Doyle Brunson do it in the WPT final, season one? He had KQ of clubs and the board came with two clubs. The play went bet-call and he pushed. Everone folded. It was pretty. It wasn't a check-raise, but it was a very similar play. I really like your villain here.

[Sprayed]

Ah, the check-raise all-in semi-bluff. It's not a bad move if only overpairs call you. Since the flop is 99X, and there was a PFR, hard to put anyone on a 9 here.

However, I would almost never call from the BB with 87o and that shallow of a stack. I might push to resteal, but not call against original raiser and another caller.

I love that play. Did you see Doyle Brunson do it in the WPT final, season one? He had KQ of clubs and the board came with two clubs. The play went bet-call and he pushed. Everone folded. It was pretty. It wasn't a check-raise, but it was a very similar play. I really like your villain here.

Believe me I don't fault him for this. I have read SS2 several times and I have been known to do the same from time to time. Question for everyone. How often do you make this play when you are in the villain’s shoes? Forget about the call pre-flop, do you CR or push with draws or do you chase it?

[TanO]

I would trust your read. Its more important. If you fold here do you start kicking yourself later ? If you believe you're ahead then make the play.

[TanO]

Oh- and its a great play by the villain, because he's expecting you to fold but he has outs if you dont.

You can see where he's coming from too, UTG is making a continuation bet probably has 2 overs, you call showing you dont have a 9 because you'd likely raise to make any straight/heart draw pay. Its a fairly safe assumption you dont have an amazing hand, unless you flopped a FH in which case he'll say fair enough thats tough luck.

Nice play by him if he actually considered all this before pushing, course maybe he just felt lucky and yelled gambool.

[zenbitz]

well you can't CR your draws EVERY TIME.... calls are pretty bad. This is a great board to do it on. However, he has huge odds to call, too, > 5:1

I think you only call if you can possibly lay down on a blank turn and pot sized bet... his stack is a little small for that, so c/r all in is not the worst option. Also, checking this flop is g00t because it might check around.

[chardrian]

I think you guys are giving the villain way too much credit. It would have been a really good play if he was actually thinking, but I doubt he was. This is a really common play by newbie/crappy MTTers (I know because it is exactly what I used to do without a read). The thought process is woo hoo I have an OESD (or a flush draw) and there's money in the pot... since winning these things just comes down to races I might as well race now... I push. It is exactly this kind of player who will later lose in the tourney when he raises preflop early with JKos and then can't fold it when he gets pushed all-in against a hand like QQ-AA.

Now, if he really was thinking and making his play based on a read - than it was a great spot to semi-bluff.

[TanO]

I just checked out Villains record on pokerdb, judging from that he just pushed cause he's a trout

[chardrian]

Damn my read is g00t!

[Sprayed]

I just checked out Villains record on pokerdb, judging from that he just pushed cause he's a trout

I checked him out after I got beat and I saw the same thing. Stings a little but that's the way it goes.