20+2. QQ. Remember how I suck at playing postflop

[vqc]

***** Hand History for Game 3184389860 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:18195321 Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Sunday, December 11, 17:41:50 EDT 2005
Table Table 67596 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 1: TheBoneHer ( $785 )
Seat 2: spider10543 ( $740 )
Seat 3: f1j2s3 ( $725 )
Seat 4: DAVID_Q ( $2785 )
Seat 5: lvstrg ( $775 )
Seat 8: jstansell111 ( $770 )
Seat 9: zeroaction ( $800 )
Seat 10: UASFALCON ( $620 )
Trny:18195321 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
There is no Small Blind in this hand as the Big Blind of the previous hand left the table.
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to TheBoneHer [ Qs Qc ]
zeroaction folds.
UASFALCON folds.
TheBoneHer raises [45].
spider10543 folds.
f1j2s3 folds.
>You have options at Table 67351 Table!.
DAVID_Q calls [45].
lvstrg folds.
jstansell111 folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Kh, 4s, 3h ]
>You have options at Table 67756 Table!.
TheBoneHer bets [60].
DAVID_Q calls [60].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Qh ]
TheBoneHer checks.
DAVID_Q checks.
** Dealing River ** [ 6h ]
TheBoneHer checks.
DAVID_Q checks.

The river was a shitty card.
Help.
I was planning on betting the turn.
But then I thought about check calling.
But then the river was a horrible card
It angers me how i sucjk.

[Aplomado]

I think you have to come out firing on the turn.

EDIT: I would put him on Ax, with a possibility that the kicker is a heart and that he's perfectly happy to have a showdown to see if it's good.

[vqc]

I think you have to come out firing on the turn.

but i shit my self if he raises me.

[Aplomado]

Maybe check the flop then?

[K2 the ArmA]

Fire again on the turn and fold to a re-raise, you got sucked out.

[Aplomado]

Fire again on the turn and fold to a re-raise, you got sucked out.

Yeah but I see what he's saying. With stacks this small and a pot already at 200 chips, he would have to committ nearly half of his chips on this hand to make a respectable bet on the turn.

[K2 the ArmA]

They don't always have the flush, you need to make a stand for a respectable stack at somepoint, you now have top pair killed.

You can play it passively like you did or slam it, if youre going to commited, just push the turn then.

[Trikflow77]

ok.....flop bet is pretty standard..........BET THE TURN.....POT THE TURN.....dont give the guy a FREE CARD. In a sng, im shoving the turn if he raises you, i am also calling his push on the turn. But i already went over this with ya...dont give free cards when you hit a strong hand.


Check calling the turn sucks......everytime a three flush hits doesnt mean they have a flush. You have to get it in your head to bet these turns.

[DaNutsInYoEye]

I know you primarily play SNGs, but you really should consider playing some 6-max or HU. It will really help your SNG game. It's great if you understand ICM and play good push-fold poker, but those concepts are rarely relavent to the first half of a SNG. Why don't you just sit out of every SNG until the blinds reach 50/100 if you have such little confidence in your post-flop play? If you can start to pick up more chips early though you'll have more room to work with later and can pick better spots to make moves.

The problem with people solely playing one type of game is that while they become experts at certain aspects applicable to what they're playing, they tend to neglect other areas. The skills they neglect may not necessarily be as important, but if they were better in these areas then their win rate would be higher.

If you really have trouble with your post-flop play then spend time improving it. Once you're done then occassionally go back to keep these skills sharp or to further improve on them.

[vqc]

I know you primarily play SNGs, but you really should consider playing some 6-max or HU. It will really help your SNG game. It's great if you understand ICM and play good push-fold poker, but those concepts are rarely relavent to the first half of a SNG. Why don't you just sit out of every SNG until the blinds reach 50/100 if you have such little confidence in your post-flop play? If you can start to pick up more chips early though you'll have more room to work with later and can pick better spots to make moves.

I played like 4 games of HU and I pwned em.
IM not THAT bad.
I have have faith in my post flop play, but i know im still learning, which is why i post here.

My first instinct was to bet here. I just over thought it.

And yes trik recommended that i play some 6 max. Which I will, once i make enough money for a side roll.

[vqc]

As a follow up, I try not to post that many Pushing questions (becuase I dont have that many anymore), but more post flop questions.

[baudib]

Gotta bet the turn hard, I think. Few hands are ahead of you, but many worse hands might call. after the call, check-call (reasonable bet) on the river.

[Aplomado]

You guys keep acting like he has a huge stack. If he bets the turn hard he might as well just push.

[salsa4ever]

he's got top set (edit: check that, he doesn't quite). he don't wanna push and drive a flush draw off.

Early in a tourney i will not fold any set to a 3-flush board unless it's something like a bet-raise-all-in coming to me. (4-flush is a different matter).

I bet the turn 200 chips. Push if raised, call if pushed into.

[Aplomado]

Good Lord what the hell am I thinking this whole time I'm thinking he doesn't have a set.

[vqc]

he's got top set. he don't wanna push and drive a flush draw off.

Early in a tourney i will not fold top set to a 3-flush board unless it's something like a bet-raise-all-in coming to me. (4-flush is a different matter).

I bet the turn 200 chips. Push if raised, call if pushed into.

Ur turn play is how I wouldve played
Kh Qh 3h
3 flush board with a set.

[KY_Ace]

HU first to act push, if he's got u beat you're not getting off cheap, he's got position. If he's got AK or KJ with the A or J of hearts you'll problably get called and win(not in your particular case but most of the time), AK without the A of hearts might pay you off, QK also has to pay you off. Some fish might even call you with JT lol, I've seen dumber calls at $50+5! you won't get a dime from from QK or AK with no heart on the four flush river, so your turn bet's the only chance to bust those hands. If I'm heads up and there's 3 to a straight or flush on board and I have a very strong hand, unless I have good reason to beleve that my opponent has me beat, I'll usually bet the pot or push if the pot bet-commits me or my opponent. There are alot of sick players in low-stakes SNGs they'll call huge bets with top pair, or the bare Ace when there's 3 to a flush on board, or just the jack when there's a 9,Ten Queen on board. When I push, get called and that ugly f'n River card that I could never bet if I had chips left drops, 3 out of 4 times I am pleasantly surprised when my hand still wins(I usually play on on Pacific where the losing hand is not revealed, as opposed to pokerroom where the hands and percentages are revealed when all players in the hand are all-in). I've busted countless players by making a huge bet in this situation, unless you know you're up against a real pro, or they could only call the flop with a draw, just hammer the moron and double up.

[salsa4ever]

Ur turn play is how I wouldve played
Kh Qh 3h
3 flush board with a set.

you've got a good point.
but i'm still stickying with my line until i see a better alternative...
having thought about it, what is the line that you prefer?

[vqc]

Ur turn play is how I wouldve played
Kh Qh 3h
3 flush board with a set.

you've got a good point.
but i'm still stickying with my line until i see a better alternative...
having thought about it, what is the line that you prefer?

play the turn hard.

get my money all in ont he turn if possible.
Four flush BADDDDD
3 flush not quite as BADDD.

[KY_Ace]

I'd play the turn the way salsa described if I had a reason to think my opponent was a very solid player. But it's been my experience that against an average low stakes SNG player you can't get them out of the hand with a sledge hammer.

I agree that aginst a solid player you want the flush draw to call a moderate bet, because they'll think they have 9 outs when the only have 7, and the 2 suited cards that pair the board will cost them their stack. A moderate bet is also the only way to get any chips from a solid player with top pair and no draw.

This is one of those hands where it pays to have taken notes. "This fool calls huge bets with weak draws" or "Very Tight". This reminds me of a hand I played once but this thread is about your hand... I'll write another thread about my hand.

[salsa4ever]

if it was a bodog 6+0.5 turbo i could push the turn and a high spade would call me for sure.

but having never played party 20s before i can't say

but the advantage of pumping it on the turn is that you eliminate difficult decisions further down the line, which has to be worth something. you also take the pot down then and there and we know that a chip lost is more valuable than a chip won