Request: put in your thought processes please?!

[Blinky]

Hi guys. I am a FTR whore (a quiet whore, but a whore nevertheless). I have learned much here, but have one request for the stronger players on the site; I'll use vqc's thread as an example:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=25018

Here there's a difference of opinion between the amateur donks like me who would bet out and 'rilla/ilikeaces who find a check. I really really really respect rilla's and aces' comments, but for you two pros, could you please explain your reasoning? It's interesting that it differs so much from our donk-brained reasoning.

I am really greatful for all the guidance given - but the thought process is what I think is important (something about making the right decisions at the right times ... )

Thanks!

[vqc]

question 1 to you
what is a c-bet and when do u make it

[Blinky]

I'm assuming that your question is as straightforward as it is, vqc!?

Cbet - I would generally say it's a bet following up on a preflop raise that missed the flop; a bluff or semibluff (as in overs to a flop).

Typical situation is missing a flop with AK after putting in a healthy raise preflop.

---
With the hand history as posted, I wouldn't really consider that a cbet - since you actually have a hand, that would be a probe bet in my book....

[vqc]

I'm assuming that your question is as straightforward as it is, vqc!?

Cbet - I would generally say it's a bet following up on a preflop raise that missed the flop; a bluff or semibluff (as in overs to a flop).

Typical situation is missing a flop with AK after putting in a healthy raise preflop.

---
With the hand history as posted, I wouldn't really consider that a cbet - since you actually have a hand, that would be a probe bet in my book....

ok ok my questino was kinda wierd becuase were trying to encapsulate our reasons for betting under a name and we should be careful not to do that.

So my quesion shouldve been
Why would we bet here?

Well we raised preflop and got some callers.
First off How many callers are there?
What do we have, what do they have, and what do they think we have?

We see that we are up against multiple callers. So what does that mean?
It means that if we are going to win this hand, and it goes to showdown, we have to beat 2 hands instead of 1. It means that if were going to make them fold, were going to have to fold 2 hands instead of one. How does this affect what we are doing...?

We see that we have QQ
To them We have a hand, a strong one maybe, that could have an ace or a king or a queen.
When we lead out, we are telling them HEY BITCHES we have an Ace.
The thing is, with 2 other people in the pot, 2 people need to believe us. Not just one...

When betting in tournaments you have a limited chip stack. It matters how many chips u use. It makes a idfference hwo many chips you sacrifice. We cant reload here.

So uh wat does this mean?

Well i posted 2 QQ hands.
In both I PFRed and in both I got 2 callers (i think =D)
But what was different?
In one hand I was second to act, in the other I was first to act.

What does this mean?

When deciding to bet here we need to look at all of the above.
Its a very all over the place post. But it has a few good thoughts.

[gabe]

blinky, did you see the thread i made a while back about having KK on an Ace high flop? that might provide you with some insight into this hand.

[aislephive]

Hi guys. I am a FTR whore (a quiet whore, but a whore nevertheless). I have learned much here, but have one request for the stronger players on the site; I'll use vqc's thread as an example:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=25018

Here there's a difference of opinion between the amateur donks like me who would bet out and 'rilla/ilikeaces who find a check. I really really really respect rilla's and aces' comments, but for you two pros, could you please explain your reasoning? It's interesting that it differs so much from our donk-brained reasoning.

I am really greatful for all the guidance given - but the thought process is what I think is important (something about making the right decisions at the right times ... )

Thanks!

Here's a similar situation that happened to me when playing in the middle stages of a 30 man SNG.

Hand #10237260-41 at SnG-MT101h-1 (No Limit tournament Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 12/Dec/05 16:43:22

the2anns is at seat 0 with 1600.
steveorace11 is at seat 1 with 1020.
hagan26 is at seat 2 with 2255.
robotron714 is at seat 3 with 3285.
Gal_ is at seat 5 with 2605.
ESP55 is at seat 6 with 3610.
naugie is at seat 7 with 4540.
andyp67 is at seat 8 with 1940.
aislephive is at seat 9 with 3380.
The button is at seat 8.

aislephive posts the small blind of 30.
the2anns posts the big blind of 60.

the2anns: -- --
steveorace11: -- --
hagan26: -- --
robotron714: -- --
Gal_: -- --
ESP55: -- --
naugie: -- --
andyp67: -- --
aislephive: Qh Qd

Pre-flop:

steveorace11 folds. hagan26 folds. robotron714
folds. Gal_ calls. ESP55 raises to 120. naugie
folds. andyp67 folds. aislephive re-raises to 430.
the2anns folds. Gal_ folds. ESP55 calls.

Flop (board: 4s As 3c):

aislephive checks. ESP55 checks.

Turn (board: 4s As 3c Kh):

aislephive checks. ESP55 bets 300. aislephive
folds, showing Qh Qd. ESP55 is returned 300
(uncalled).

Now being out of position is a huge disadvantage for me here, and I didn't want to make a c-bet when a card he easily could be holding is on the board. If I make a c-bet here I lose way too many chips when I'm behind. If he had something like a medium pair he would probably opt to check the turn and see a cheap showdown. I also doubt that he would bet into a reraiser without an ace or a king. He probably had a hand like AQ or AJ and put out a tester bet to see where I was. I figured that if I was ahead on the flop there were fews cards that could come that would hurt me, and unfortunately one of those cards came on the turn, the king. If he has 99 or something I'm almost positive he doesn't bet out here because of the pre-flop reraise I threw out there. He could be making a play on me, but I don't want to put any more chips in the pot, it was time to cut my losses and move on (I ended up winning the thing anyways). In VCQ's situation I'm even less likely to make a c-bet since two other players are in the pot. If they have two medium pairs or a hand like KQ then they'll most likely just check down the hand and see if their hand is good. Betting serves no real purpose in this situation, you're just leaking chips.

[LordoftheIsles]

Continuation bet: flop bet from preflop raiser, typically 1/2 - 3/4 of the pot.

Probe bet: flop bet by player who didn't raise preflop (limped or called raise), typically a little smaller than Cbet.

That's how I understand the terms, though I'm not sure there is universal agreement (e.g. does a probe bet have to be made in front of a preflop raiser, or can it be first bet when all limped?). Also, some imply that a continuation bet is only when the flop has missed you, some that maybe it has, maybe it hasn't.

As for the hand in this thread, I don't have a problem with either a continuation bet around 100 to represent an Ace, or a check/fold, given we have two opponents. It isn't a huge part of our stack and there are 175 chips to be won both argue for the bet. Against that, this is Level 1 and that usually means the full compliment of maniacs and calling stations are still present in the SNG, so it's harder to take the pot down now.

[baudib]

What do you call it if you have 88 in the SB vs. three limpers and you lead out with a half-pot bet on a flop of J76?

[konahead]

I'm amazed that Blinky considers me an "amateur donk" because I say to bet out at it and therefore disagree with ilikeaces and 'rilla.

I see two opps in the hand, and one already checked the flop. No reason to assume 2nd opp has an ace, and they have EVERY reason to assume you do have one. I find a check to be giving the pot away with no info, versus a bet of 2/3-3/4 may take it down right there. If called, check/fold balance of hand unless a Q comes up.

A difference of opinion between two players does not make one "a pro" and the other "a donk"... I'm suprised you think that way....

btw - if the pot/blinds were bigger or the stacks were smaller, I'd check - but at the $22s and a preflop bet of 50, you're just as likely to have K9s and 88 call that preflop raise as an Ax.

[vqc]

I'm amazed that Blinky considers me an "amateur donk" because I say to bet out at it and therefore disagree with ilikeaces and 'rilla.

I see two opps in the hand, and one already checked the flop. No reason to assume 2nd opp has an ace, and they have EVERY reason to assume you do have one. I find a check to be giving the pot away with no info, versus a bet of 2/3-3/4 may take it down right there. If called, check/fold balance of hand unless a Q comes up.

A difference of opinion between two players does not make one "a pro" and the other "a donk"... I'm suprised you think that way....

btw - if the pot/blinds were bibber or the stacks were smaller, I'd check - but at the level vq plays and a preflop bet of 50, you're just as likely to have K9s and 88 call that preflop raise as an Ax.

I didnt feel insulted...
Im sure he wasnt tyring to hurt anyones feelings.

[konahead]

not offended - just suprised...

[gabe]

I'm amazed that Blinky considers me an "amateur donk" because I say to bet out at it and therefore disagree with ilikeaces and 'rilla.

I see two opps in the hand, and one already checked the flop. No reason to assume 2nd opp has an ace, and they have EVERY reason to assume you do have one. I find a check to be giving the pot away with no info, versus a bet of 2/3-3/4 may take it down right there. If called, check/fold balance of hand unless a Q comes up.

A difference of opinion between two players does not make one "a pro" and the other "a donk"... I'm suprised you think that way....

btw - if the pot/blinds were bigger or the stacks were smaller, I'd check - but at the $22s and a preflop bet of 50, you're just as likely to have K9s and 88 call that preflop raise as an Ax.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=21766&
remember this one? it doesn't apply to this hand directly but i think you could learn something from rereading it.

[konahead]

although I said i like to cont bet in your situation too, I find little fault with checking when your opp raised 3xbb then called your 9xbb re-raise UTG, pointing towards AA, AK, etc - and have in fact begun checking in that raise/reraise situation..... see - I did learn a little something from your thread - thank you again, sir.

but here, the opps called a 3.3x bb raise, and one had already limped. Small raise given stack sizes. Then one opp checked that flop. I still like a bet here. Good chance you can take it down, or at least see where you stand.

[Fnord]

Way ahead/behind.

I like a check.

This is comming from a pretty horrible bet-bot who bets that flop a fair % of the time...

[Blinky]

Thanks for the replies guys. To konahead - sorry if I surprised/offended you it was meant as a joke and I guess when I was composing my post I deleted a smiley in there.

Anyways, I'm betting that flop (like a donk ) - now others can put me on some Ax or if they missed the flop/called with a lower pocket pair I might take it down. In fact my line of thought for betting out mirrors Kona's.

It's just interesting that there's a counter line of thought - and it comes from people in my guesstimation are stronger than average players on ftr.

[konahead]

again i took no offense from your post, and yes - they are better than your average players.

keep asking questions and you will be too -