20+2. A should be std hand, but im a fish today

[vqc]

#Game No : 3186416608
***** Hand History for Game 3186416608 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:18205821 Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Sunday, December 11, 23:19:31 EDT 2005
Table Table 67395 (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 2: heffer888 ( $1155 )
Seat 5: chadepst ( $635 )
Seat 9: tsnofvdr ( $585 )
Seat 1: f_the_un ( $855 )
Seat 8: TheBoneHer ( $1795 )
Seat 3: sskifoo ( $680 )
Seat 6: FlatSoda ( $795 )
Seat 4: luckyGrl26 ( $415 )
Seat 7: bziegs15 ( $1085 )
Trny:18205821 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to TheBoneHer [ Qs Qc ]
FlatSoda folds.
bziegs15 calls [15].
TheBoneHer raises [50].
tsnofvdr folds.
f_the_un folds.
heffer888 folds.
sskifoo calls [50].
luckyGrl26 folds.
chadepst folds.
bziegs15 calls [35].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ac, 3h, 3c ]
bziegs15 checks.
TheBoneHer ??????

I dont think bziegs has an ace here.
Gotta lead this right?

yes i know, wat thehell am i doing at the 22s if I cant even C-bet.

[Aplomado]

I might check and then wait and see if someone bets out on it, then possibly reraise.

[a500lbgorilla]

3 ways makes this a check, i think.

[vqc]

3 ways makes this a check, i think.

interesting...

[salsa4ever]

standard.

i bet 80

[vqc]

standard.

i bet 80

u bet 80 into a 170 pot.

rilla finds a check.

Why?

[salsa4ever]

my playground is 15+1 turbos on stars, so deeper stack sizes.

but my rationale here is I've raised. I've already had one player check to me... I've got to *do* something. I'd like to get position for the next streets if possible. there could also be gutshots or possibly flush draws or a K so I'm not prepared to give the free card.

I assume rilla is thinking check-call... but I'd rather go with the standard cont bet - leave my opponents with the decision, not me

[vqc]

my playground is 15+1 turbos on stars, so deeper stack sizes.

but my rationale here is I've raised. I've already had one player check to me... I've got to *do* something. I'd like to get position for the next streets if possible. there could also be gutshots or possibly flush draws or a K so I'm not prepared to give the free card.

I assume rilla is thinking check-call... but I'd rather go with the standard cont bet - leave my opponents with the decision, not me

im not sure rilla is thinking check call here.
Thats seems really weak to me.

[salsa4ever]

when check-call is too weak, and check-raise seems reckless (to me), then by process of elimination there's only one thing to do, right?

[vqc]

when check-call is too weak, and check-raise seems reckless (to me), then by process of elimination there's only one thing to do, right?

So is it between check folding
or leading?

[salsa4ever]

i don't think i could check fold what is probably the best hand...
so i lead... with a bigger stack i'd bet a round 100 but boy, I don't think i could handle the party starting stacks

but i'm no poker god: lets see what the others think

[vqc]

but i'm no poker god: lets see what the others think

OR
we could dance our problems away...

ok lets wait for more opinions =D.

[ProZachNation]

Im no poker god either but I got standard cont. bet here.

[zenbitz]

c-bet. The fact you are chip leader cinches it. You will get extra respect. There are no draws whasoever, so 1/2 pot is perfect, although you could go higher if you have previously potted draw free pots (giving opps benefit of doubt here... they probably don't notice)

[ilikeaces86]

I like a check

[zenbitz]

yeah but check/raise or check/call or check/fold? Depends on bettor/bet size I guess.

[konahead]

I throw out 125 and see if I get a call - only an Ace will call. Check/fold rest of hand.

Opp knows with your preflop raise you proably have an ace, so rep it and see what happens.

[lowBoy]

C-bet all the god damned day.

[aislephive]

Check-fold and cut your losses.

[DaNutsInYoEye]

Check-fold and cut your losses.

I agree.

What is the range of hands you put your opponents on given your PF raise? Ax is certainly one of them. With three other opponents it makes it all the more likely that you could be facing someone with an A. I'm not c-betting here because 1) I'm out of position 2) there are 3 other people in the pot 3) if I'm called I'm more than likely beat and only drawing to two outs. The risk:reward is too small considering my stack is large, the pot isn't particularly big and it's still level 1. To make a continuation bet a good option here you have to both think there is a reasonable chance that none of your three opponents has an ace and that a continuation sized bet will be enough to convince them that you are the one that actually has it.

Continuation betting is a standard line, but it doesn't necessarily make it the best one. It's predictable and not applicable to every single flop. Just because you raise pre-flop doesn't mean you have to bet the flop. It's one thing to bet AK unimproved when you have two overs working for you or bet a PP with one over on the board against a single opponent, but against multiple opponents, out of position and in a tournament setting I don't particularly like it.

[Fortune 500]

Too many hands out against you. You've got to check fold it.

For those that Vote Check/fold like myself...

Does your strategy change if it comes down K33?

[konahead]

You guys say too many hands in it and check/fold, but there are only two other opps, and one already checked. What makes you think the other opp doesn't have pocket Tens or something like that? Throw out 2/3-3/4 pot and see what happens - ie - get some info.

Or just fold with no information.... lol

[Tenny]

I would have raised it to 80 before the flop so no suited Ace rags come along for the flop.

I would bet at that flop in your situation every time.

[ckoop]

even if A rag has come along, wouldn't a pot sized C Bet be the play here...I think it represents that you (preflop raiser) hit your big A (especially since there's the flush draw here and most opponents will recognize your attempt to kill the flush draw) and that even if they have a weak A they might find it hard to call. i think AK, AQ typically reraises a small amount here at this point in the tourny which is why I'm not too worried about those hands.

But the pot sized flop bet here gets me into trouble at times in this situation if i get a caller because I get lost on the turn out of position like this. C bets are something I'm still struggling with and it might be that I'm not giving enough attention to position. Sometimes pot sized works, while other times half pot works, without reads at the beginning of a tourny its tough to decide what type of bet will confirm your opponent's expectation of your hand.

[aislephive]

You guys say too many hands in it and check/fold, but there are only two other opps, and one already checked. What makes you think the other opp doesn't have pocket Tens or something like that? Throw out 2/3-3/4 pot and see what happens - ie - get some info.

Or just fold with no information.... lol

How often will pocket tens bet out on an Axx flop in this situation? The stacks are too shallow to make a c-bet out of position when you are either way ahead or way behind. If the stacks were much deeper I'd throw out a feeler bet to try and take down the pot, but it's not worth it in these party SNG's. Check and fold if somebody bets.

[konahead]

a 2/3 pot bet (~125) is about 7% of vq's stack - pot's only 175 and he's got 1745 in chips. Shit - he's the big stack.

One opp checked and the other opp could have any pocket pair lower than queens or some shit like K9s tryin to get lucky. Rep the ace and see what happens.

If you check and 2nd opp (position player) throws out 125, what you gonna do? fold? the bet certainly doesn't mean he has an ace...

If i'm 2nd opp with position and both players check, you can be assured I'll make a play at that pot, especially if I have TT...

[Fnord]

If i'm 2nd opp with position and both players check, you can be assured I'll make a play at that pot, especially if I have TT...

Great reason to check.

I c-bet so much that typical opponents get really paranoid when I check. When I check the flop and bet the turn I very rarely get a call...

[konahead]

thats not a bad line either, as long as you're willing to call a flop bet from 2nd opp - but if a bet from 2nd opp will scare you off the hand, i think you should bet out first and see how he acts....

[gabe]

i check, but not check fold. you dont make money from betting here, you make money from catch bluffs from people with TT

[konahead]

I'm a little concerned with the check/call line because I don't know how much 2nd opp would bet from position. If I bet first, I have some control over the bet size, and I can bet the amount I'd be willing to call. If position opp bets greater than pot, I'm struggling to call it, even if he doesn't have an ace. After all, if vq was second opp, he may push w a bluff. You gonna call that? (not a cap, vq - just that you've been pushing on some tough flops lately in your posts..... )

And i think you lose too much calling bets without knowing where you stand - more than you gain from a TT bluff. At least if opp calls your bet, you can be pretty sure they have an ace.

[gabe]

good players are good at picking off bluffs

[konahead]

can't argue with that, but on first level of sng not sure I'd have enough info to know if it's a bluff or not...

but thats why I play $11s and $22s and you play $55s and $109s... I bow to your skill, sir.