KK in EP

[MortenTA]

i have been playing fine slowly building my stack when this happens..

PokerStars Game #3302672663: Tournament #16033519, Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (100/200) - 2005/12/11 - 08:12:08 (ET)
Table '16033519 30' Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: MortenTA (9579 in chips)
Seat 2: bigred1981 (1886 in chips)
Seat 3: Bright59 (1237 in chips)
Seat 5: Garwalt (6840 in chips)
Seat 6: siondubois (7505 in chips)
Seat 7: markovitz (17946 in chips)
Seat 8: MsLanie (3095 in chips)
Seat 9: EastVan (9471 in chips) is sitting out
MortenTA: posts the ante 25
bigred1981: posts the ante 25
Bright59: posts the ante 25
Garwalt: posts the ante 25
siondubois: posts the ante 25
markovitz: posts the ante 25
MsLanie: posts the ante 25
EastVan: posts the ante 25
markovitz: posts small blind 100
MsLanie: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to MortenTA [Ks Kh]
EastVan: folds
MortenTA: raises 600 to 800
bigred1981: folds
Garwalt: folds
siondubois: folds
markovitz: raises 17121 to 17921 and is all-in
MsLanie: folds
MortenTA: calls 8754 and is all-in
*** FLOP *** [Jh 8s Qs]
Garwalt said, "i should say Iggles"
*** TURN *** [Jh 8s Qs] [2s]
fishman33 is connected
*** RIVER *** [Jh 8s Qs 2s] [6s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
markovitz: shows [Ac As] (a flush, Ace high)
MortenTA: shows [Ks Kh] (a flush, King high)
markovitz collected 19508 from pot

I guess this is just bad luck but should i risk a good tournament on this? If he hold everything but the Aces im good but just wanted your comment..

Villain have been playing tight but has hit some good hands lately.. I too have been showing a tight image..

[JCooper]

T.J. Cloutier says KK is not a good enough hand to get broke with in the early stages of a tournament.

I think everyone else will.

[MortenTA]

T.J. Cloutier says KK is not a good enough hand to get broke with in the early stages of a tournament.

I was thinking just about the same after the tournament.. hence this post

but when i made the call i was thinking he might have TT, JJ, QQ, AKs and if he have the Aces so be it...

[WildBobAA]

I'm never folding KK on a pokerstars MTT ever. EVER

[JCooper]

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I agree, never fold KK. With that situation in a cheap online tourney you are more likely to be up against QQ, JJ or AK.

Sometimes you will just get broke against AA and thats just poker. My comment about T.J. is really just to show, you aren't going to start folding KK until you get to that level (and possibly never online).

[Andy Holt]

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I agree, never fold KK. With that situation in a cheap online tourney you are more likely to be up against QQ, JJ or AK.

Sometimes you will just get broke against AA and thats just poker. My comment about T.J. is really just to show, you aren't going to start folding KK until you get to that level (and possibly never online).

Nice save.

[JCooper]

[quote="Andy Holt"]

Nice save.

No, more of an explanation; thats what I meant by: "I think everyone else will."

Here's a funny story though - while writing this reply, this situation came up in a final table. Good thing was, I had the AA. Next hand, while I was writing that last sentence, I had 99 vs. 88. Woot!

[aislephive]

Never ever fold KK pre-flop in an online tournament. In a live tourney where I had a ton of chips in relation to the blinds and antes I may be able to fold if I was pretty sure he had aces. But it's a cheap online MTT and he is just as likely to have AK, QQ, JJ, AQ, etc. to make the fold worthwhile.

[silverfist]

It's a fine call. Add to this that it's the chip leader pushing on you. There's a good chance he's just bullying you. I know you said he'd been tight, but a push isn't looking for a call usually. I'd be more scared of a mini-reraise here.

[Les_Worm]

Call all day long with Kings. I'm never folding there. For future reference you are supposed to suck out when they have aces.

[Andy Holt]

No, more of an explanation; thats what I meant by: "I think everyone else will."

My bad, misread your first post. It looked to me like you were saying everyone else agrees with Cloutier!

[bluedevil907]

T.J. Cloutier says KK is not a good enough hand to get broke with in the early stages of a tournament.

I think everyone else will.

I actually just read something about him today in a local paper. It was from an interview with Mike Sexton:

That's called the Big Slick. You think it's overrated?

"Overrated. The only player out there who really plays the Ace-King the best is T.J. Cloutier. He just throws it away. I mean, it doesn't faze him to toss it away if some guy raises in front of him."

[midas06]

"Overrated. The only player out there who really plays the Ace-King the best is T.J. Cloutier. He just throws it away. I mean, it doesn't faze him to toss it away if some guy raises in front of him."

In a Full Tilt - tips from the pros article, he says about AK,

Here are three keys to getting the most out of A-K pre-flop:

1) Jam with A-K, but don't call all-in with it.

2) Raise enough when you have A-K to give your opponents a chance to fold.

3) Don't raise so much that the only hands that are willing to call you are the hands that have you dominated (A-A and K-K).

[Lukie]

easy call

[Sprayed]

Call.

[konahead]

1 in 20 times, your KK will run into AA. If you try to figure out when, you'll go crazy. (loose quote from H on H)

Just get them all in and hope for no aces on the board.

[musevisa]

The only concern I have with KK is how to get as much as possible into the pot preflop...

[MortenTA]

hehe.. yeah.. that was not my problem in this hand :P

[JoseyWales]

Here are three keys to getting the most out of A-K pre-flop:

1) Jam with A-K, but don't call all-in with it.

2) Raise enough when you have A-K to give your opponents a chance to fold.

3) Don't raise so much that the only hands that are willing to call you are the hands that have you dominated (A-A and K-K).

[/quote]


Can anyone show me a hand history or explain how in tarnation one decides an amount to satisfy #2 and #3?? Is this based on a multiple of the BB (ie 2x) or based on stack size of opponents or position or guesstimate or idunno?

Also, I'm too dumb to figure how to get the quote all pretty, simply hitting the quote button results in the above all ugly. HELP!

__________________
"Clear as mud" - Aristotle

[K2 the ArmA]

Just unlucky, gotta call. I just had this happen at 100nl 6-max.

[metaxy6]

In a Full Tilt - tips from the pros article, he says about AK,

Here are three keys to getting the most out of A-K pre-flop:

1) Jam with A-K, but don't call all-in with it.

2) Raise enough when you have A-K to give your opponents a chance to fold.

3) Don't raise so much that the only hands that are willing to call you are the hands that have you dominated (A-A and K-K).

Ha. I read that article. Cloutier is cited for naming AK "walking back to Houston" because if you played it too hard around the Dallas games that's what you'd be doing.


As for that KK, do it. I agree with most of the reasons stated, especially
1 in 20. I lay TT there with a sigh, JJ with a grimace, QQ with a pain in the gut. But not KK.

[drmcboy]

I remember once, I almost folded KK pre flop in a PS deep stack tourney. But my wife gave me a weird look, and I called. Opp had the AA.

However, I had raised, op re raised, I re re raised and then he moved in. When I made the third raise, I said to myself - he'll fold unless he has AA. But still I just couldn't do it.

In this spot - one raise then a push - there is 0 chance I would fold, online, live, WSOP FT.

[metaxy6]

I But my wife gave me a weird look, and I called.

And what did you learn from this?

[metaxy6]

Ha. This happened to me 2x today in ring. The 2nd time - I decided to take this very wise advice from the worm.

For future reference you are supposed to suck out when they have aces.

Thanks!!