Learning SNGs ?

[JEEPNERD]

Ok, hoping to hear from some of the experts on here, have been lurking and tested the waters with a few posts. Gleaned some good advice and wanted to see if I could get a bit more:

Quickly...just started online poker 2 months ago...was reading posts here first which is good, and used the starting groups from here at FTR to play in ring games. Created a poker matrix in Excel based on those groups and have had some small success in the .05/.10 ring games. (Went from $25 to 187, but that includes a $100 of bonus for 500 hands...and yes I realize I started too small, read 'rillas post after that)

So...now, I have $187 in there.... I have played maybe ten or so $1 sngs and placed 2nd once and fourth to seventh in the rest.

My question is this... I could play 187 $1 Sngs here or 35ish $5 sngs....both of which are "ok" by the bankroll rules, is there much difference in the game between those levels? Obviously I could multitable the $1 and play several at once and really ramp up my experience level quickly?

So...oh masters of SNG...help a newbie out... would love some quick advice? I would (PM) message some of you direct and will if you prefer...but basically want some help learning SNGs. (I am in the midst of finishing HOH1 now)

I realize there is a WHOLE lot more to playing SNGs than the cards in your hand.... and that is why I am trying to get time under my belt...so beginning advice??

Sam

[Jeebus Kliest]

If you read and apply hoh 1/2 you are off to a better start than most. Id go with the 5's for a while. Avoid multitabling for a while until you get the flow of the game down...what types of moves to do when against who..etc .etc. Work on your reads...try to figure out what people have regardless if you are playing or not.

Most of us are guilty of it but at least when learning pay attention to everything...turn off the tv..dont surf...and don't let results affect your good plays.

[drmcboy]

yeah you need a really good reason (that I can't come up with) to multi 1 dollar SNGs. Play 5s for sure.

[Andy Holt]

Don't multitable when starting out. It won't ramp your experience level at all, and you'll be way below your maximum earning potential.

I moved from 5's to 10's once my bankroll hit 180... just some food for thought.

[Aquinas]

My suggestions: If u have never played SNGs before, try this at the 1 dollar SNG. Play every hand to the flop for 5-10 games (ull loose the 5-10 dollars). C what happens. Note how people seem to play different hands against u. And when u seem to loose the big pots. Now do the same thing for 5-10 games but play every hand from late 2 positions and fold everything but monsters from the rest. Also don't defend ur blind without a hand. C what happens (ull loose much less). Then play 5-10 games where u fold every hand but KK and AA until blinds reach 100. At that point change gears to sklansky's push fold. C what happens. (ull earn a tiny bit is my guess)
Then start playing the tight game recommended here at the 5 dollar level (less rake than at 1!), remembering what u've learned. (hint hint...u ought to have picked something up about position and something about kickers) Again note when u seem to loose/win big pots.
If u find urself bubbling out, try playing some 6 person SNGs.
Try making notes on people. Ie how many hands they play. Do they call a lot? Etc. Then try making those notes mentally instead. DO NOT MULTITABLE. Multitabling will just loose u tons of money for less learning, since u probably will loose money in the beginning.
Make a rule that if u are first into a pot pf, u raise to 3bb. Seldom deviate from the bet size and hardly ever limp.

[CFANG]

Finish reading HoH 1/2, watch Dwarfmans vids, play the 1's to practice reads and moves (and pick up some dead money) and when you're reasonably confident move to the 5's (or 6 turbos if thats your style). If you want to try multi-table after a while, try it on the 1's first to get a feel for it. Practice lots and keep reexamining your game and you'll be on the road to proffit

[vqc]

If ur playing at PP or skins, PM me.

[JeffreyGB]

My suggestions: If u have never played SNGs before, try this at the 1 dollar SNG. Play every hand to the flop for 5-10 games (ull loose the 5-10 dollars). C what happens. Note how people seem to play different hands against u. And when u seem to loose the big pots. Now do the same thing for 5-10 games but play every hand from late 2 positions and fold everything but monsters from the rest. Also don't defend ur blind without a hand. C what happens (ull loose much less). Then play 5-10 games where u fold every hand but KK and AA until blinds reach 100. At that point change gears to sklansky's push fold. C what happens. (ull earn a tiny bit is my guess)
Then start playing the tight game recommended here at the 5 dollar level (less rake than at 1!), remembering what u've learned. (hint hint...u ought to have picked something up about position and something about kickers) Again note when u seem to loose/win big pots.
If u find urself bubbling out, try playing some 6 person SNGs.
Try making notes on people. Ie how many hands they play. Do they call a lot? Etc. Then try making those notes mentally instead. DO NOT MULTITABLE. Multitabling will just loose u tons of money for less learning, since u probably will loose money in the beginning.
Make a rule that if u are first into a pot pf, u raise to 3bb. Seldom deviate from the bet size and hardly ever limp.

Some great advice here. Aquinas, I'm curious - are you vehemently against multitabling completely, or just when a player is starting out? Do you multitable?

[JEEPNERD]

Ok, some good advice, logged into SportingBet and for some reason the $1 sngs were missing last night? (I am wondering if they are only on certain nights or...hmmm) So I wasn't able to play any SNGs (busy looking for other sites with low SNGs), played one MTT and placed about 70 out of 300 or so, holding straight to the Ace, but idiot me didn't put the other guy on flush, sigh....thought at worse we were split pot.


I opened a BODOG acct last night for a couple reasons, 1 was HoldEm Genius offer....2nd reason was they have the $5 +.50 Sngs (Like Pokerstars) and 10% eats up the profits "less fast?"

However, I am not married to any specific site at this point... I really like the $1 SNGs but if they have gone away, not much left for me at SportingBet, I will withdraw my cash and go on to a bigger site that I can use either PT or PokerOffice at. (Empire has the deal right now with POffice..so they might be next)

Ok...continuing on with my HOH1 reading and trying to apply this stuff.

Found myself getting frustrated on ring NL at bodog last night trying to use the hold em genius...only useful thing on it so far is the auto pot odds vs draws but even that is flawed if you have the best hand already!

Will keep you guys in the loop...watched WPT on tv last night and inspired me again to really learn this thing. I don't feel the need to go pro by any means, but sure would like to be consistent/good player!

Sam

[adiamant]

Poker Stars has a 1+0.20 5 table SNG.
I'm also new and starting out, and the advice on this thread seems very helpful.

[JeffreyGB]

Pokerstars offers $1 45-person SnGs. Decent if you ultimately want to move in to MTTs, but if you really want to focus on SnGs, having a 45 person field might make things work a bit differently.

Ultimate Bet offers $1 10-person SnGs. I'd recommend them as a good learning ground. The rake is standard (10%) so you're not getting ripped off like you do at some low-buyin SnGs.

[JEEPNERD]

Ultimate Bet offers $1 10-person SnGs. I'd recommend them as a good learning ground. The rake is standard (10%) so you're not getting ripped off like you do at some low-buyin SnGs.

Thx for the heads up there...I downloaded UB just now and I will send them some moolah later tonight. I am really attracted to the $1+.10 SNG right now since I can get 100 games in with little cost, and hopefully the game will not be "that" different from the $5+.50

Just an update, started tracking tourney results at SportingBet, decided to go ahead and get in some 5, .5o games there.

13 games this weekend:

Cost $71.50 [Won 25+15+10]

ROI -30.1%

I TM % 23.1%

13 games, yeah I know, small pool...hey, without multi tabling that is over 12 hours this weekend, I am working on it! I am tracking it now and will keep posting my progress here

Placed 1, 2 and 3rd each one time, 4th 3 times and 5-10 7 times...

I honestly think I would have done better but had several hands in a row that I never got the chance to double up (a high PP or AK) and ended up mid game as a fairly low stack that had to play more hands just to stay ahead of the blinds!?

Here are my notes from the hands I did not finish ITM, SportingBet has CRAPPY hand history or I would post the actual hands...


KQ (TPGK) lost "big" twice for me, then short stacked and busted out on 55, lost to JJ pp (7th)

Was chip leader mid game, lost couple big hands trying steal blinds and put small stacks out (5th)

trying to double up, busted out on AKo vs JJ and KQo, JJ hit trips on river (8th)

No chance to double up early, shortstacked and busted out with 56s, all in, by pair of 3s (6th)

TT pocket, flopped set, busted by straight on river trying to slowplay my set (10th) [LESSON LEARNED]

Never did get a chance to double out, blinded out until had to go all in (4th)

Busted out with J high flush against Q high flush (4th)

AJs lost to 67o, short stacked had to go all in preflop, was called (6th)

[JeffreyGB]

KQ (TPGK) lost "big" twice for me, then short stacked and busted out on 55, lost to JJ pp (7th)

This sounds like a leak. At a full table, a decent amount of the time you're getting calls with KQ holding just a pair, you're behind. Especially if it was raised preflop.

Was chip leader mid game, lost couple big hands trying steal blinds and put small stacks out (5th)

This is why, unless you have a read on them, it's often a bad idea to steal from the small stacks. They are, as a whole, more likely to decide they won't get a better chance and call/push.

trying to double up, busted out on AKo vs JJ and KQo, JJ hit trips on river (8th)

You may have been trying to double up too hard/too soon. Your goal isn't to get all-in to win a coinflip early on. You'll bust out early 50% of the time. Raise AK (or call a raise), but if you're likely to get a caller, you may want to wait to hit/bluff the flop before you raise it up even higher.

No chance to double up early, shortstacked and busted out with 56s, all in, by pair of 3s (6th)

Again, you don't necessarily have to find a spot to double up early. You're better off staying out of the action and letting other people bust out as they try to do this. Once it gets a bit short-handed and the blinds are enough to matter, get more aggressive. At what point are you considering yourself shortstacked? How much are you raising when you do?

TT pocket, flopped set, busted by straight on river trying to slowplay my set (10th) [LESSON LEARNED]

Yeah...don't slowplay on a board with draws. A decent amount of the time, the only way you get as much as you want in the pot is when you lose it.

Never did get a chance to double out, blinded out until had to go all in (4th)

AJs lost to 67o, short stacked had to go all in preflop, was called (6th)

Again, when do you start getting more aggressive? How short-stacked are you letting yourself get?

[JEEPNERD]

Again, you don't necessarily have to find a spot to double up early. You're better off staying out of the action and letting other people bust out as they try to do this. Once it gets a bit short-handed and the blinds are enough to matter, get more aggressive. At what point are you considering yourself shortstacked? How much are you raising when you do?

Well, I was considering shortstacked if I only have enough chips to make it about 3ish rounds. So I guess, once the BB/SB are more than 30% of my stack I feel the "need" to find any hand better than avg soon... [Best guess is 1000ish or so chips with 75/150 to 100/200]

What I have been trying to do, early game, is ONLY play really high PP, (TT and above), going all-in preflop with AA, AK and KK, maybe I am playing those TOO aggressive (allin)? Raising the others 4-6BB..or calling similar raise ahead of me.

After it gets down to 6ish players, I am trying to wait for any PP to limp in with or suited connectors over 67s, again limping? Then trying to get pot odds on my post flop play. If I am one of the bigger stacks, I try to start blind stealing since others usually tighten up here?

As always, HUGE thanks for any/all advice and yes I know I need to go play a few hundred SNGs to really get a feel for it...and I am working on that as we speak!

Sam

[JeffreyGB]

Well, I was considering shortstacked if I only have enough chips to make it about 3ish rounds. So I guess, once the BB/SB are more than 30% of my stack I feel the "need" to find any hand better than avg soon... [Best guess is 1000ish or so chips with 75/150 to 100/200]

What I have been trying to do, early game, is ONLY play really high PP, (TT and above), going all-in preflop with AA, AK and KK, maybe I am playing those TOO aggressive (allin)? Raising the others 4-6BB..or calling similar raise ahead of me.

After it gets down to 6ish players, I am trying to wait for any PP to limp in with or suited connectors over 67s, again limping? Then trying to get pot odds on my post flop play. If I am one of the bigger stacks, I try to start blind stealing since others usually tighten up here?

As always, HUGE thanks for any/all advice and yes I know I need to go play a few hundred SNGs to really get a feel for it...and I am working on that as we speak!

Sam

Your # of rounds I can survive value is often referred to as M. You may be letting it get too low before you start making moves - you want your stack to be large enough to garner folds from a below average hand. Try raising your "breakpoint" value to 5. So if you have 1000ish chips, you're making plays at the 50/100 level. By the time your M gets much below 3, you're basically desperate to double up. A consideration that goes along with all of this is how much it will help you to steal the blinds at a given level. In the above points and beyond, I'm looking for spots to make a play from late position with almost any two cards if it's folded to me.

If you're going to play to draw, play that way in the early game, when it's cheap. Drawing hands with large blinds are a BAD idea. I limp any pair in the first two or three blind levels, then raise or fold them (based on strength and # of people left to act - 88 is usually a clear muck UTG, but 66 is a raise from the button). By the time you're short stack (as above), I'm open-pushing any pocket pair. Suited connectors, I'll limp in LP early on. Either fold or raise later, and if it's a raise, it's because of the situation, not the cards (meaning I'd probably do it with any two). Many winning SnG players do not play suited connectors at all.

Essentially, the idea is to get tighter as the blinds increase, but only slightly. While doing this, you also get significantly more aggressive.

[RollingHigh]

Ok, some good advice, logged into SportingBet and for some reason the $1 sngs were missing last night? (I am wondering if they are only on certain nights or...hmmm) So I wasn't able to play any SNGs (busy looking for other sites with low SNGs), played one MTT and placed about 70 out of 300 or so, holding straight to the Ace, but idiot me didn't put the other guy on flush, sigh....thought at worse we were split pot.


I opened a BODOG acct last night for a couple reasons, 1 was HoldEm Genius offer....2nd reason was they have the $5 +.50 Sngs (Like Pokerstars) and 10% eats up the profits "less fast?"

However, I am not married to any specific site at this point... I really like the $1 SNGs but if they have gone away, not much left for me at SportingBet, I will withdraw my cash and go on to a bigger site that I can use either PT or PokerOffice at. (Empire has the deal right now with POffice..so they might be next)

Ok...continuing on with my HOH1 reading and trying to apply this stuff.

Found myself getting frustrated on ring NL at bodog last night trying to use the hold em genius...only useful thing on it so far is the auto pot odds vs draws but even that is flawed if you have the best hand already!

Will keep you guys in the loop...watched WPT on tv last night and inspired me again to really learn this thing. I don't feel the need to go pro by any means, but sure would like to be consistent/good player!

Sam

Hmm... I mostly play NL RG's and STT's and according to my experience these so called pot odds calculators lika Holdem Genius, Poker Pal and Texas Caculatem and primarily for use in Limit holdem where a strictly matematical approach can make you farly succesfull or at least not loose that much.

In NL where you can loose your hole stack in one hand the most important thing is to play thight-aggressive, by aggressive I mean selective aggresion by wich I mean to know when to push a good hand and also when to fold it, that reguire two important skills that no pott odds calculator in the world can give. They can actually make you play like a fish if you aren't carefull, so stick to low-limit holdem if your reading skills suck and you have to use a pot odds calculator.

You have to read your opponent and correctly place him on a hand and you have to be able to play the player (Even if your matematical chance of winning is only 5%, your real VC could well be 70% if you make a raise aganist an opponent wich you think has a better hand than yours but not a monster and will fold to your raise most times in those situations.

The only software I know of that can help you with that is profiling software like Poker Tracker, Poker Office and similar so buy one of them instead and learn to use and interpet the information they give you correctly, practice makes perfect as they say.