10+1. KK level 3

[vqc]

***** Hand History for Game 3229354194 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $10 Buy-in + $1 Entry Fee Trny:18425491 Level:3 Blinds(25/50) - Monday, December 19, 18:58:49 EDT 2005
Table Table 67187 (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 10: TheBoneHer ( $735 )
Seat 6: oxendine73 ( $1435 )
Seat 1: Joeltimothy ( $3405 )
Seat 8: mehramilo ( $1080 )
Seat 3: earl44 ( $770 )
Seat 7: RLB32 ( $575 )
Trny:18425491 Level:3
Blinds(25/50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to TheBoneHer [ Ks Kc ]
RLB32 folds.
mehramilo folds.
TheBoneHer raises [150].
Joeltimothy calls [150].
earl44 folds.
oxendine73 calls [100].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ah, Qd, 8h ]
oxendine73 checks.
TheBoneHer checks.
Joeltimothy checks.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3c ]
oxendine73 bets [50].
TheBoneHer is all-In [585]

[Aplomado]

Seems like a decent play to me. I would think the Ace would lead out into this pot. Either that or he's playing scared with something like A2. In that case, he'd probably fold to an all-in anyway.

[Fnord]

I dig it.

[aislephive]

Worse hands fold, better hands call. A medium ace is probably lurking somewhere in the backdrop and may call (after all that's why they're in the hand with ace-rag). I might make one of those raises that makes it look like we're pot commited in hopes to scare them off. Your shallow starting stack doesn't give you much room for mistake.

[konahead]

I like it too. Looks like you were just waiting for someone to bet into your AQ.

[vqc]

Worse hands fold, better hands call. A medium ace is probably lurking somewhere in the backdrop and may call (after all that's why they're in the hand with ace-rag). I might make one of those raises that makes it look like we're pot commited in hopes to scare them off. Your shallow starting stack doesn't give you much room for mistake.

What better hands do u think are in this hand?
How would u have played Ax here.

Not pushing here and betting half ur stack instead "hoping" for a fold, is not good.

[aislephive]

Worse hands fold, better hands call. A medium ace is probably lurking somewhere in the backdrop and may call (after all that's why they're in the hand with ace-rag). I might make one of those raises that makes it look like we're pot commited in hopes to scare them off. Your shallow starting stack doesn't give you much room for mistake.

What better hands do u think are in this hand?
How would u have played Ax here.

Not pushing here and betting half ur stack instead "hoping" for a fold, is not good.

Ax is among the likely hands to have called your raise pre-flop, and you're banking on them being able to fold top pair, which I don't think is very reasonable. I don't have much experience playing with these shallow starting stacks, but if you're going to make a standard 3xBB raise with KK you should be able to fold when an ace flops unless you know they'll fold (and I don't know how you can possibly know they will). Factor in the fact that another player is in the pot with you as well (he is also the big stack) and pushing is very risky. The min-bet might entice me to make a move on him, but I think that you're in an ugly situation that you probably won't be able to get away from.

[vqc]

Worse hands fold, better hands call. A medium ace is probably lurking somewhere in the backdrop and may call (after all that's why they're in the hand with ace-rag). I might make one of those raises that makes it look like we're pot commited in hopes to scare them off. Your shallow starting stack doesn't give you much room for mistake.

What better hands do u think are in this hand?
How would u have played Ax here.

Not pushing here and betting half ur stack instead "hoping" for a fold, is not good.

Ax is among the likely hands to have called your raise pre-flop, and you're banking on them being able to fold top pair, which I don't think is very reasonable. I don't have much experience playing with these shallow starting stacks, but if you're going to make a standard 3xBB raise with KK you should be able to fold when an ace flops unless you know they'll fold (and I don't know how you can possibly know they will). Factor in the fact that another player is in the pot with you as well (he is also the big stack) and pushing is very risky. The min-bet might entice me to make a move on him, but I think that you're in an ugly situation that you probably won't be able to get away from.

My question to u was and still is.
How would Ax have played the flop?

We are on the turn
where
2 players have checked the flop.
one player donk bets the turn.
With deep stacks, do u raise, call, or fold the turn?

[Fortune 500]

I play it pretty much the same with shorter stacks. Nh.

[mcatdog]

I would do the same thing. Pouncing on weak probe bets like this one, is one of the easiest ways in the world to pick up chips. Occasionally you'll get owned by someone laying a trap, but this play takes down the pot a very high percentage of the time. It's easy to understand the thought process that's going in your opponent's mind.

Opponent (makes a small bet): "My hand is OK, but I'm frightened that it's not as good as yours."
You (goes all-in): "You bet I have you beat."
Opponent (folds): "OK, I'll get out of your way."

I probably shouldn't even be posting this here, because now anyone who reads this forum will make a weak lead bet into me after I raised preflop, and have a good chance at taking my whole stack.

[zenbitz]

AX could easily check that flop afraid of AK/AQ.

Is pushing over the min bet on the turn really better than pushing the flop? Other than the 50 more chips. I guess the heart draw has dropped in value.

Overall... I think I like it. I probably don't push ANY turn bet, but check flop min bet turn is supah weak. Plus someone playing AX afraid of that board will likely release it.

There is a non-trivial chance you run into AA/QQ/AK/AQ/A8/88 are a pwnt by a slow play.

[GixMage]

My advice, continuation bet the flop (around 150). Leaves you a way out if someone raises (He has the ace-good kicker), and a flat call probably signifies Ax at worst and lower pair to you at best, and a decent possibility of taking it down right there. If someone flat calls, it is a good chance that it can be checked down. If your beat, you're drawing to 2 outs, and would still have 400+ chips to play push/fold after the c-bet. Just my 2 cents.

[zenbitz]

Heres a question... do you play the flop differently if you hold QJ (or KQ?) on an AQX flop?

[vqc]

Heres a question... do you play the flop differently if you hold QJ (or KQ?) on an AQX flop?

i dont kno if i push over that turn bet.

i think im afraid of a KK there...

wat do u think i should do if i had QJ or KQ here.
I think im more likely to fold it...

this is a good question
I am stumped!

[nickthefool]

KQ i'm playing the same as KK with that board - it's 2nd pair.

[Robert]

I know giving a free card is horrible, especially with a flush draw on the board, but I think I would just call his turn bet - I catch a bluff often enough to make it a very profitable call.
Like aislephive said, I think A-rag is very possible here, I see ppl checking the flop in EP with toppair-ragkicker all the time, and every time I try to push them off the pot on the flop or later streets - like you try to do here on the turn - I end being called. These guys wont ever lay down toppair. This move might work against better players, but not against the fish that swim around in the 10s at party.

[Easy17]

i call or fold, but i liked the advice above of a decent (not huge) bet on the flop with middle pair. You represent top pair, and can find out information.

the weak lead on the turn can be any number of things, do not assume it is what it seems... i personally use it sometimes in every kind of situation, as it tends to confuse people as to what my cards are, forces them to make a decision, and sometimes just pisses them off all for risking very few chips.

[zenbitz]

At some level - KK on AQX board and KQ on AQX X board - are similar. They are both 2nd pair. KQ has more outs against AX, but less against AQ/AK. KK is way more hidden. That probably matters a little, because if villian has a Q and puts you OFF the A (for whatever crazy reason), he will likely make a move with a worse hand (of course, for you to capitalize, you have to put HIM off the ace... or just not care).

I think KQ is way easier to lay down here... but probably that's wrong. KK is just hard to lay down because it's, well, KK.

I bet Poker Stove shows them almost equal - so to a first approximation you should play them the same, as long as you played them them same preflop - which in this case, you would have since you open raised 3x.

The big difference is that pre-flop, if someone is in the pot first you raise much more, and much more often with KK than KQ (barring short stacks/short handed play)