Standard right?

[bdawg56kg]

No reads on villian (allpureluck). My hand is AK of diamonds.
PS: sorry for the crappy hand history

Texas Hold'em $1-$1 NL (real money), #1,606,944,930
Table Akron, 19 Dec 2005 2:39 AM ET
Seat 1: TR23 ($81.60 in chips)
Seat 2: B_Rice56 ($196.50 in chips)
Seat 3: gmetric ($120.80 in chips)
Seat 4: banksg420 ($77.40 in chips)
Seat 5: pipeliner711 ($185.50 in chips)
Seat 6: allpureluck ($57 in chips)
Seat 7: UrHukleberry ($258.35 in chips)
Seat 9: BUSH_IN_08 ($88.60 in chips)
Seat 10: chinho77 ($36.45 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
allpureluck posts blind ($0.50), UrHukleberry posts blind ($1).

PRE-FLOP
BUSH_IN_08 folds, chinho77 calls $1, TR23 folds, B_Rice56 bets $4, gmetric calls $4, banksg420 folds, pipeliner711 folds, allpureluck calls $3.50, UrHukleberry folds, chinho77 calls $3.

FLOP [board cards QS,2C,5D ]
allpureluck checks, chinho77 checks, B_Rice56 checks, gmetric checks.

TURN [board cards QS,2C,5D,10H ]
allpureluck checks, chinho77 checks, B_Rice56 checks, gmetric checks.

RIVER [board cards QS,2C,5D,10H,AS ]
allpureluck bets $15, chinho77 folds, B_Rice56 folds

[outphase]

bet the flop to take what's in it right now, re-evaluate on the turn and make your play based on the texture

[Telepath]

You can't check the flop, you're simply setting yourself up to get stolen. Lucky for you everyone else was equally passive and you got to see two cards for free, but it does make sense to try and knock out some inferior hands on the flop.

T.

[Fnord]

I don't mind the flop check. It's a 4-way pot and Qxx isn't a great flop for you. The bet/check decision here really depends on how you've been playing, the table has been playing, etc.

Then again, I play AK a little carefully and save the aggression for hands with less of chance of catching up or winning showdown (and of course I play my monsters fast more often than not.)

As played, you should call the river bet (minus read). You've under-represented your hand all the way and the short-buy comming out of the SB has a really wide range here.

[Telepath]

^ Yes, you should call the river. However... assuming that someone has hit this flop good, you'll be reraised. If they haven't, you will possibly but not likely win the pot uncontested. If they've got a marginal holding they might just call. Won't you improve your chances of winning this pot by coming out with a decent bet?

Just for the EV part...

But yeah the river bet just looks like a semisteal.

T.

[Fnord]

Won't you improve your chances of winning this pot by coming out with a decent bet?

Consider... what are the chances your flop bet takes it down? What's your c-bet size? Put an EV figure on a bet here (oh yeah, we can't because we don't have enough information!) 4-way I don't think there is a whole lot of value here. Sure, betting gives you the best chance to win a pot, but cash poker isn't about winning pots, it's about winning money.

Also consider that we can pass in a spot like this where we're almost certainly drawing live. Maybe even get a cheap showdown with the best hand. Yet, if they see us pass here, they might give us more credit later when we're in much worse shape.

I tend to bet my best hands and sometimes my hopeless hands. The stuff in-between and with some outs I tend to check. I also tend to play much more honestly and straight-forward when the pot is muli-way. Pretty fundmental stuff IMHO...

[Telepath]

My problem is that with a check on the flop, someone will try to steal the turn every hand on the sites I am playing.

I also think that a bet on the flop (I am talking midrange here about 50% pot) you will possibly fold the hands that do have outs against you, thus thinning the field and improving your winrate.

But I agree it's a kinda tricky question... I've checked in similar situations many times... esp. multiway... but I'm starting to wonder if it's not a bad play.

T.

[Fnord]

My problem is that with a check on the flop, someone will try to steal the turn every hand on the sites I am playing.

Why the sense of entitlement to win this pot? Because you had AK pre-flop and perhaps that was even the best hand at that point? Because you raised pre-flop?

I understand the power of the AA-QQ/AK and similar ranges played fast. However, so many opponents try to counter it that AK no longer plays such a big role in my monster range.

[Telepath]

It's not about a sense of entitlement... It's merely that IF I bet the flop, someone will fold something that he would possibly have bet pot on the next street. Basically I am 1, trying to get rid of hands, 2, trying to buy myself the next cards at the price I am comfortable with. Granted it doesn't always work, but...

You might be right, I might be wrong. I've always had trouble playing AK.

T.

[Fnord]

Granted it doesn't always work, but...

I submit that if you focus and pay attention you can make pretty good guesses as to when you're likely to get the desired result and when you should just pass.

[Telepath]

^ That's most likely true.

T.

[bdawg56kg]

Fnord pretty much described my thought process right on the nose. I almost never c-bet into 3 other people with just missed overcards. Even with 2 callers, I c-bet maybe 50% of the time. Thinking that you are entitled to win the pot since you raised preflop with probably the best hand is a very big leak IMO that a lot of new players make (I know I did). So basically I pretty much gave up on the hand once I got 3 callers and missed the flop. If I lead out for say $10-12 on the flop, don't you think Qx looks me up here? And not by raising, but by calling more often than not I think. So say I get one caller, how do I play this turn? Sure I picked up a gutshot, but I'm still a significant dog to any made hand, and don't even know if my A's and K's are clean. At this point the pot would be $35-40 and I only have A high and drawing to a gutshot, not a position I like to be in. If the person behind me was the one who called my c-bet, this makes the situation a LOT worse.

The river bet by villian is the interesting part I think though (I assumed everything prior was standard). I thought about this for a long time before folding. It really smelt like a monster that wanted to get money in on the flop or turn but missed that opportunity and is now trying to jam the pot to at least get a little paid off. Either that or a weaker Ace that just hit 2 pair or something. I mean, if he has a brain, he has to know that ace probably did hit me, as well as maybe one other person, so he's not leading out for a pot sized bet with the intention of just stealing with air. The way I saw it, the only hand I had beat was AJ or maybe chopping with AK. I only had $4 invested, and had no information, so folding seemed like the best choice. Thoughts?

[Fnord]

The way I saw it, the only hand I had beat was AJ or maybe chopping with AK. I only had $4 invested, and had no information, so folding seemed like the best choice. Thoughts?

You're giving a short-buy too much credit for pre-flop hand selection and discounting the chance he's making a play here with less than an Ace.

[bdawg56kg]

You're giving a short-buy too much credit for pre-flop hand selection and discounting the chance he's making a play here with less than an Ace.

Are you implying that if villian had $300 you'd be more inclined to fold to his river bet? Maybe I'm wrong, but in general I tend to see the really short stacks, the ones sitting with $20-25, as the fish and don't give them as much respect. Anything over that I don't differentiate. It just seems like villian's stack size shouldn't be the deciding factor as to whether or not I call this river bet.

[EricE]

No way I am folding to that river bet. We finaly hit our hand. You can't serously put him on AQ or AT here as we would have seen a bet before the river. I raise that river.