QQ hand vs. no overcards, but big pre-flop raisers

[Silly String]

PokerStars Game #3480273741: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2005/12/30 - 14:02:01 (ET)
Table 'Behrens' Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: SillyString ($47.90 in chips)
Seat 2: cdmckinn2002 ($26.05 in chips)
Seat 3: ikarolia ($12.05 in chips)
Seat 4: joelsiev ($25.70 in chips)
Seat 5: F-PALM ($14.75 in chips)
Seat 6: patleafs ($17.20 in chips)
Seat 7: wadestiffler ($25.55 in chips)
Seat 8: the_big_fox ($23.65 in chips)
Seat 9: big420 ($21.60 in chips)
the_big_fox: posts small blind $0.10
big420: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to SillyString Q Q
SillyString: raises $0.50 to $0.75
cdmckinn2002: calls $0.75
ikarolia: folds
joelsiev: raises $2.25 to $3
F-PALM: folds
patleafs: folds
wadestiffler: folds
the_big_fox: calls $2.90
big420: folds
SillyString: calls $2.25
cdmckinn2002: folds
*** FLOP *** 6 7 5
the_big_fox: bets $3
SillyString: raises $3 to $6
joelsiev: raises $3 to $9
the_big_fox: folds
SillyString: calls $3
*** TURN *** T
SillyString: checks
joelsiev: bets $13.70 and is all-in

I question my move here. Standard preflop raise at the table is 3-4x with reraises around 8x. Pretty standard for Pokerstars. The big pre-flop re-raise and subsequent caller had me wondering about AA or KK. What is the standard move here, CALL? Could I have avoided this decision by re-raising pre-flop or making a bigger opening raise here to sniff out big PP?
READS: joelsiev= 2 orbits at table. Nothing out of line, semi-tight so far.
I really only fear AA, KK here. The set is less likely as most don't re-raise preflop with TT, 77, 66, 55. Straight isn't likely by Preflop re-raiser either. The problem is the aggressor is the one who stays in the hand. 3 to 1 on my money, I call right?

[r8ed]

I had a very similar situation yesterday. This guy reraised you twice including a 3-bet flop and then pushed on the turn. I think you have to give him credit for a good bluff or a better hand. I should have taken that advice myself because I lost one buyin for being stubborn.

[Silly String]

What level are you playing at?

[r8ed]

25NL. But I called because the reasoning you layed out.

[bdawg56kg]

I don't like the flop minraise. You don't really gain any information on villian's hand. I would pop it up to $9 and take it from there. But the way you played it, I think it's push or fold once the action gets back to you on the flop. When you call the $3 flop 3-bet, what are your plans for the rest of the hand? Showdown for free? I don't think so. You know that once he 3-bets the flop you are most likely playing for stacks if you decide to stay in, so you might as well push and gain some fold equity or just fold. I only like calling if villian likes to take his bluffs too far. But unless villian has been reraising early position preflop raises frequently, I would probably just play for set value here.

[Silly String]

You'd play QQ for set value preflop? The opp had not re-raised an EP raise yet. I can't do that here, I must protect my good hand. I usually PFR 4x, but I was trying to switch it up. In EP that might not have been too brilliant.
With the pre-flop action and my read, I didn't want to waste anymore $ by raising the flop by more than a min-raise.
On calling the $3, yes I was hoping for a cheap showdown or to hit a Q and destack AA or KK. Though a cheap show-down is unlikely, I think calling here beats pushing. $3 into $27 is pretty good with opp. almost certainly not drawing. His push put me to the test. What would you do bdawg56kg?

[BankItDrew]

Same situation lastnight for myself.

Big raise from a TAG preflop, I call.

Flop came rags below Jacks. I make it pot sized and he pushes All-In. I fold.

I think what I should have done is re-raised pre flop to see how strong of a hand he actually held. If he re-raised my preflop raise i wouldn't have seen a rag of a flop. If he calls my re-raise i don't put him on anything better than QQ, and it allows me to take control of the betting.

[fjuanl]

Without any reads, the only hands I can see him playing like that are JJ+ I'm not sure if calling is correct if you know 2 out of the 3 possible hands he's playing will beat you. (Assuming he doesn't also have QQ)

[bdawg56kg]

You'd play QQ for set value preflop? The opp had not re-raised an EP raise yet. I can't do that here, I must protect my good hand.

Oh, maybe I was unclear. I would certainly raise preflop, but once he reraises, I probably play for set value if I think villian is not a donk. He's repping AA/KK, so without a read I would give him the benefit of the doubt here.

On calling the $3, yes I was hoping for a cheap showdown or to hit a Q and destack AA or KK. Though a cheap show-down is unlikely, I think calling here beats pushing. $3 into $27 is pretty good with opp. almost certainly not drawing.

I really think that given the flop action, a free/cheap showdown is basically out of the question. You just said that you put him on AA/KK and were hoping to hit a Q. If you put him on AA/KK, then fold! Sure, villian probably is not drawing, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't raise if you feel you are ahead. Say he has JJ and an A or K hits the turn. Then you probably won't get much more out of him and he might even bluff you out. But if you pushed the flop, he might've called and you get his whole stack. If he folds, you win a very nice sized pot. If you had position, there would be more of an argument for calling, but without position, I think raising is the best option (that is if you feel you are ahead).

I think what I should have done is re-raised pre flop to see how strong of a hand he actually held. If he re-raised my preflop raise i wouldn't have seen a rag of a flop. If he calls my re-raise i don't put him on anything better than QQ, and it allows me to take control of the betting.

I don't think this is very good advice. When you three bet with QQ preflop, you are just asking to get trapped. Any worse hand is definitely folding, and I think AA and KK just call most of the time and stack you on the flop. I know I would smooth call with AA or KK if Hero came back over the top here. So basically I don't think you really gain any info by 3-betting QQ preflop. Then again at 25NL 3-betting preflop with QQ might not be such a bad idea...

[Miffed22001]

Ugly.
Reraise preflop. If you are beat ypu find out quickly enough. If he cold calls you get most of it in on the flop or turn (i assume he has AK possibly JJ/TT). Pay anyone who traps you here with KK/AA make notes and next time try to keep the pot controlled in this circumstance.
You get yourself into trouble by not defining opps hand enough preflop imo, AK can be played by donks in thsi fashion on that flop. Imo you lose so much less if you reraise opps preflop reraise and opp pushes (QQ is an easy fold in that position unless op is a real donk) Cold caller would typically be me with a PP looking at huge implid odds here, but here it may just be AQ/AK possibly just a fish looking for a nice flop. That makes a reraise almost standard, 3 to the flop with a reraise is asking for trouble so define preflop.

[biondino]

Here's another. It looks pretty straightforward, but I'd appreciate any thoughts and comments on my play:

(Dooley is a tight player who I respect and who only PFRs 2% of the time, and who previously has won big against me.)

Game #1240052144: Hold'em NL (£0.15/£0.25) - 2005/12/31 - 11:36:35 (ET)
Table "Ronador" Seat 9 is the button.
Seat 1: Jason1973 (£13.60 in chips)
Seat 2: elffy (£19.53 in chips)
Seat 3: Pau160335 (£23.40 in chips)
Seat 4: Spud_07 (£14.75 in chips)
Seat 5: Zerbombt (£24.50 in chips)
Seat 6: Lostalot (£8.35 in chips)
Seat 7: Xaarcasm (£10 in chips)
Seat 8: Dooley (£13.25 in chips)
Seat 9: Craig_rfc sits out
Seat 10: Ste003 (£30.25 in chips)
Ste003: posts small blind £0.15
Jason1973: posts big blind £0.25
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to Zerbombt [Jh Jc]
elffy: calls £0.25
Pau160335: folds
Spud_07: calls £0.25
Zerbombt: raises to £1
Lostalot: folds
Xaarcasm: folds
Dooley: raises to £2
Ste003: folds
Jason1973: folds
elffy: folds
Spud_07: folds
Zerbombt: calls £1
----- FLOP ----- [7d Td 6c]
Zerbombt: checks
Dooley: bets £2.25
Zerbombt: raises to £4.50
Dooley: raises to £11.25 and is all-in

[Miffed22001]

Differnt because JJ is less of a hand in this circumstance. Against more hands its a flip. Id call preflop here and bet the flop hope has nothing fold to his reraise. JJ is goot but not here.

[BankItDrew]

I think what I should have done is re-raised pre flop to see how strong of a hand he actually held. If he re-raised my preflop raise i wouldn't have seen a rag of a flop. If he calls my re-raise i don't put him on anything better than QQ, and it allows me to take control of the betting.

I don't think this is very good advice. When you three bet with QQ preflop, you are just asking to get trapped. Any worse hand is definitely folding, and I think AA and KK just call most of the time and stack you on the flop. I know I would smooth call with AA or KK if Hero came back over the top here. So basically I don't think you really gain any info by 3-betting QQ preflop. Then again at 25NL 3-betting preflop with QQ might not be such a bad idea...

The reason a QQ re-raise preflop is a good idea is because most AA and KK would come back over the top, if they do, lat it down. I don't see the sense in KK or AA to flat call because it makes more sense to get in as much money pre-flop when they have the lead. This is also the same reason for a re-raise from QQ, not just because it gives better insight at the holdings of your opponent, but also because you are getting more money in when you are ahead of AK AJ AT, JJ, TT...

I'll fold QQ (something I did lastnight) after a J high flop with opponent pushing AI - this is a trap. A call after a push with a K high flop is just nonsense.

[EricE]

Facing a big reraise PF like this with QQ I am not going to reraise him just to lay it down PF. As soon as his serious reraise hits I am calling for set. No set on the flop it’s a fold to any real bet. I just can’t give up the chance to destack him with a set by reraising PF only to be pushed off. Similarly, I don’t want to get more money in PF once he has shown he very likely has me beat. Call to set.

[Silly String]

I see this situation baffles more people than just me. Thanks for all the input. I laid it down thinking he was on AA/KK or some wacky ass str8. Little did I know he overplayed AK to a bluff. He won't get away with that against fishier competition(they call with any piece), but I guess he may have me pegged as a solid TAG, that will fold 2nd best hands. Here are the results:

SillyString said, "you have KK or AA?"
ikarolia said, "ZZ"
SillyString said, "a little hint"
the_big_fox said, "folded"
SillyString has timed out
SillyString: folds
SillyString is sitting out
the_big_fox said, "JJ"
SillyString has returned
joelsiev collected $29.50 from pot
joelsiev: shows K A (high card Ace)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $31 | Rake $1.50

I just couldn't bring myself to hit the call button. Timed myself out. ARG!!

[BankItDrew]

I don't understand how calling a raise heads up hoping to hit a set makes any sense.

Situation 1) He will not call any re-raise pre-flop with AA to your QQ, you eventually lay it down. (lose medium pot)

2) He calls your re-raise with AA to your QQ, he takes medium pot postflop.

2) He calls your re-raise with JJ to your QQ, you take medium pot postflop.

I agree though, that it is very difficult to play QQ. Especially pre-flop when facing re-raise after re-raise. And how often should you call postflop AI's with J high flops?

[bdawg56kg]

The reason a QQ re-raise preflop is a good idea is because most AA and KK would come back over the top, if they do, lat it down. I don't see the sense in KK or AA to flat call because it makes more sense to get in as much money pre-flop when they have the lead. This is also the same reason for a re-raise from QQ, not just because it gives better insight at the holdings of your opponent, but also because you are getting more money in when you are ahead of AK AJ AT, JJ, TT...

I'll fold QQ (something I did lastnight) after a J high flop with opponent pushing AI - this is a trap. A call after a push with a K high flop is just nonsense.

I am all for reraising preflop with QQ, but this situation is very different. In this case, hero was the original raiser, then he got reraised. So say instead of flat calling like hero did, he repops it up to $10. Now if villian shoves, I suppose you can find a fold here, but you only have to call $15 more, making this an ugly decision since you already have so much invested. If villian flat calls, you're going to be pushing this flop and if he has AA/KK you're toast.

I don't see the sense in KK or AA to flat call because it makes more sense to get in as much money pre-flop when they have the lead.

Sometimes (in fact a lot of times) the implied odds of stacking QQ or an aggro JJ (or KK if you hold AA) on a raggedy flop are much much greater than the value of getting more money in preflop when you know you have the best hand. IMHO, unless villian is a total donk or shortstacked, getting into raise wars with AA/KK preflop is not the best way to maximize value in general.

[BankItDrew]

Ok, I submit to calling the re-raise preflop - because I hadn't thought of the "only a little more to call an AI" factor.