Obvious leak. What would you have done?

[johnnyBuz]

***** Hand History for Game 3317795026 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $10 Buy-in + $1 Entry Fee Trny:18911822 Level:3 Blinds(25/50) - Thursday, January 05, 02:57:34 EDT 2006
Table Table 67110 (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: kmmap ( $870 )
Seat 2: niceNsteady ( $400 )
Seat 3: kobrakhan ( $1120 )
Seat 4: USFBowler ( $410 )
Seat 5: DTX21 ( $900 )
Seat 8: yizzlenutz ( $1620 )
Seat 9: vertexer ( $955 )
Seat 10: ljnext ( $950 )
Seat 7: johnnyBuz ( $775 )
Trny:18911822 Level:3
Blinds(25/50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to johnnyBuz [ Kd Qs ]
yizzlenutz folds.
vertexer folds.
ljnext calls [50].
kmmap folds.
niceNsteady folds.
kobrakhan folds.
USFBowler folds.
DTX21 folds.
>You have options at Table 67022 Table!.
johnnyBuz checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qh, Th, 9s ]
johnnyBuz bets [125].
>You have options at Table 67022 Table!.
ljnext calls [125].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 8h ]
johnnyBuz bets [100].
ljnext is all-In [775]

I immediately regret the 100 bet on the turn. I was putting him on a straight draw after the flop and should have figured he had the jack. Dumb raise by me.

[AHiltz]

I immediately regret the 100 bet on the turn.

Would that be due to the fact that you're pissing away chips, or that you underbet, or that you have a very good chance of being beat right now?

[taipan168]

On that board with all those straight and flush possibilities, check/fold on the turn IMO. You bet the pot on the flop, you got called, the scare card came on the turn, don't waste any more money on this hand I think.

Separately, I agree with AHiltz, betting 100 into a 375 pot is just a nothing bet, a waste of chips unless you have the nuts and you're throwing out a value bet.

[Muxy]

Stop being smaller on the turn.

He is only going to smell weakness in your bet.

[konahead]

Bet on flop was too big. No point in betting more than necessary to give opp bad odds. Pot's only 100 - 75 would have been fine - max bet 100. If he's going to call 75, he's going to call 125 too. Save the chips.

check the turn and river - and fold if opp bets. Board has 4 to a straight and 3 to a flush (and you have no hearts) - and not a chance in hell of you being best at this point. Or if you are best, not worth finding out. No point in betting at that board at all. Check/fold.

[GatorJH]

Bet on flop was too big. No point in betting more than necessary to give opp bad odds. Pot's only 100 - 75 would have been fine - max bet 100. If he's going to call 75, he's going to call 125 too. Save the chips.

That is a great point. I have noticed lately that the general betting theme seems to be making pot sized bets or higher when little information is known about the opponent's hand. Some people may counter that Donks will call a smaller bet (like 75) so I need to majorly overbet the hand to teach him a lesson.

As Konahead stated, the goal is to make your opponent make an "unprofitable" call, regardless if he is a Donk or a good player. Making standard bets accomplishes that. If you make a value bet of 75 chips on the flop and he calls with a straight draw or two overcards you have done your job.

Any other thoughts on this?

BTW, I too would check/fold the turn after his call on the flop.

[samsonite2100]

Any other thoughts on this?

A couple. First, I believe, re: Kona's post, the pot is 125, right? Second:

As Konahead stated, the goal is to make your opponent make an "unprofitable" call, regardless if he is a Donk or a good player.

Is that the goal, though? I know in ring play, it's 100% about pot odds, but SnGs are more about stack size. I've certainly found it to be true, at least at the 5.5 and 11s, that donk will take your word for it on a pot-sized bet, and not so much on a 2/3 or even 3/4. When you underbet, those A4's will often assume you have middle/low pair/nothing and will stay in trying to hit their A. I'm not saying you guys are wrong, just defending the thinking behind pot-sized bets. Let me know what you think, b/c this is potentially a leak in my play.

[konahead]

I failed to realize the pot's 125 on the flop, and thought it was 100. So I was suggesting a 3/4 to pot size bet, rather than a larger-than-pot sized bet. My bad. 125 is a good bet here.

And I'm not against overbetting the pot when I KNOW I have the best hand but the board is dangerous - ie - flush draws and straight draws showing and I have a set. I'll bet out 2xpot or push to take it down there. But here many hands already have him beat (KJ, QT, 99, etc) so he should be giving draws bad odds and fishing for information. That's why I suggested a 3/4 to pot sized bet.

sorry about the confusion. good point, sammy.

[samsonite2100]

But here many hands already have him beat (KJ, QT, 99, etc) so he should be giving draws bad odds and fishing for information. That's why I suggested a 3/4 to pot sized bet.

I think this may be a leak in my play. I tend to always bet the pot with TPTK and could probably be saving money by identifying flops where I'm likely already beat.

[drmcboy]

to be clear, the goal IS to make him make an unprofitable call. If he'd call 500, and you would still be confident you had the best hand, you'd bet 500. The reason you don't bet 500 is because only a moron would call 500 here unless he had you cold cocked.

The idea of betting larger just to protect your stack IS a leak and will result in you winning some small pots and then getting owned in one big one.

it will also likely result in your bluffs being obv because you over bet with a hand and 3QPS it with out one.

Or it will result in your never bluffing, because you can't stomach overbetting on a bluff. Also, because of the increased chips at risk, your reads much be much better since you lose more when you're wrong.

[samsonite2100]

The idea of betting larger just to protect your stack IS a leak and will result in you winning some small pots and then getting owned in one big one.

I'm not talking about overbetting to protect my stack, I'm talking about the specific case of betting the pot when you flop TPGK. Kona's right about trying to identify boards where you're likely beat and betting less to save chips--this is undoubtedly a leak of mine.

However: How would you bet AQ on a Q-7-2 rainbow flop?

[konahead]

depends on position, opponent, etc - but in that situation I would bet 2/3 - 3/4 pot unless against only one laggy opp, in which case I check or bet weak... The more opps in the hand, the larger my bet. But I would rarely bet more than the pot unless there were 4 or 5 opps...

[samsonite2100]

Interesting--pot bet has been my standard play for a while, but I think you may be right, Kona. I'm gonna try this for a while and see if there's any difference in hand perception from the clowns down in New Donkton, aka the Bodog 11s.

[johnnyBuz]

What does everyone think the villian had to begin with? I had a tough time putting him on a read preflop and after the flop. I'm thinking AJ or JJ?

[zenbitz]

J9h straight flush.

[konahead]

KJ - no hearts.

[zenbitz]

The idea of betting larger just to protect your stack IS a leak and will result in you winning some small pots and then getting owned in one big one.

I'm not talking about overbetting to protect my stack, I'm talking about the specific case of betting the pot when you flop TPGK. Kona's right about trying to identify boards where you're likely beat and betting less to save chips--this is undoubtedly a leak of mine.

However: How would you bet AQ on a Q-7-2 rainbow flop?

Bet it EXACTLY the same as if you had AK. Or AQ on a K72 flop.
If your c-bets are different from your value bets, it's a tell. A horrible, punishing, god-awful tell. That you will probably get away with because SNGs are two short to really notice patterns like this.

Note that if the flop is 2 suited you have to bet more (whether or not you hit TPTK), because if you HAVE hit TPTK, you have to killl drawing odds.

The difference between having AQ and AK on a Q72 flop is that you want to check the flop with AK sometimes at random. HOH2 recommends only c-betting 1/2 the time. I think in an SNG you can go up to like 3/4ths or even 100% if you are the big stack at a weak/tight table.

[GatorJH]

Interesting--pot bet has been my standard play for a while, but I think you may be right, Kona.

Hey!! Where are my props? I started that discussion.

If your c-bets are different from your value bets, it's a tell. A horrible, punishing, god-awful tell.

Well put, I am going to have to start wathcing this in my play!!!!

[samsonite2100]

Hey!! Where are my props? I started that discussion.

Sorry, you're right. Thanks, Gator! It's just, Kona's avatar is so much sexier than yours...

[Eat the Flesh]

What bothers me in these situations is when you let off and don't make a bet on the turn ,of course,the opp. is going to make some bet.I generally make a huge bet representing the straight/flush and figure he dont have it.A donk could of been calling a Ah 9 or Tx(middle or bottom pair).Thoughts?

[GatorJH]

What bothers me in these situations is when you let off and don't make a bet on the turn ,of course,the opp. is going to make some bet.I generally make a huge bet representing the straight/flush and figure he dont have it.A donk could of been calling a Ah 9 or Tx(middle or bottom pair).Thoughts?

That may be a hole in your game. Poker is a game of information so far you know the following:

Villian had a hand that was good enough to call pre-flop, but not good enough to raise with. This could include hands such as AJ, KJ, QJ (yes, some donks will limp in with this), 10's, 9's, 8's or AXh. You are well behind in all of these.

You also know that you made a pot sized bet on the flop and he called that bet. Just taking a stab at this because you "think" he is a donk who might play second or bottom pair is not a smart move. If you lay it down and he shows his hand to confirm this, then you make a note of it and wait for a better spot to take him down with.