Hand Selection in Accordance with M

[Sprayed]

I understand M and pushing when your stack is 10xbb or you have an M of 5 or less. However, I wanted to start a thread to get everyone’s thoughts on their hand selections in each M zone. What I am interested in knowing is what type of hands (i.e. suited connectors, small pp, etc.) are you playing and what are you trying to accomplish in each zone. When I say accomplish I mean are you pushing, calling raises, or limping, etc. Like I said, I have a pretty good understanding of each zone, but I think that I may be a bit off on my hand selection when my stack dwindles. It would be helpful for me to see what type of hand everyone is looking for in each zone.
Thx

[drmcboy]

holy cow

how about you start, and then people can jump in where they disagree with your chart.

[Sprayed]

holy cow

how about you start, and then people can jump in where they disagree with your chart.

Ok, how about this smarty pants , do I throw away suited connectors and small pps in the so called yellow zone and tighten my hand selection? Is the orange zone primarily top 10 hands and making a raise or reraise depending upon the hand and position? What makes the yellow and orange zone different? I know the red is for pushing.

Edit: I don't want a chart. I'm not a robot. It's all situational, right?

[drmcboy]

I didn't mean that to sound cranky , I just meant you're asking for a lot of effort, which is fine but you'll probably get better results if you put some in yourself.

The big difference for me between yellow and orange is your ability to fold the hand if you get raised, and also whether you should even raise at all rather than push. In the orange zone, if you raise, you'll almost always have the right price to call if someone comes over the top. In yellow, you might fold something like AJ (or a steal) if a really tight opp came over the top.

Connectors and small pps - mostly yes, you should throw them away. They are also better steal hands in LP than total junk. But again in the OJ zone you can't 'steal' since you can't get away from the hand if raised.

A frequent move I'll make is the 'one last yellow zone steal' where I'll make a raise that I know, if I don't win the pot, will be the last one before I'm in push fold mode because losing those chips takes me to OJ. I like the play because it may allow me to stay yellow for another orbit, but if it fails my stack is now OJ and I can play more aggresively pre flop.

Also I would play scs, pps out of the SB if there are limpers pretty much always, or some weird spot where there is a min raise and 5 calls behind or something, yellow or OJ.

Another difference would be if you raise and get called - again typically in OJ it is the right move to push/call on almost any flop. Yellow you can sometimes fold something like 99 on a AQ6 flop.

[Sprayed]

I didn't mean that to sound cranky , I just meant you're asking for a lot of effort, which is fine but you'll probably get better results if you put some in yourself.

The big difference for me between yellow and orange is your ability to fold the hand if you get raised, and also whether you should even raise at all rather than push. In the orange zone, if you raise, you'll almost always have the right price to call if someone comes over the top. In yellow, you might fold something like AJ (or a steal) if a really tight opp came over the top.

Connectors and small pps - mostly yes, you should throw them away. They are also better steal hands in LP than total junk. But again in the OJ zone you can't 'steal' since you can't get away from the hand if raised.

A frequent move I'll make is the 'one last yellow zone steal' where I'll make a raise that I know, if I don't win the pot, will be the last one before I'm in push fold mode because losing those chips takes me to OJ. I like the play because it may allow me to stay yellow for another orbit, but if it fails my stack is now OJ and I can play more aggresively pre flop.

Also I would play scs, pps out of the SB if there are limpers pretty much always, or some weird spot where there is a min raise and 5 calls behind or something, yellow or OJ.

Another difference would be if you raise and get called - again typically in OJ it is the right move to push/call on almost any flop. Yellow you can sometimes fold something like 99 on a AQ6 flop.

Awesome. That's what I was looking for. Thanks

[zenbitz]

Connectors and small pps - mostly yes, you should throw them away. They are also better steal hands in LP than total junk. But again in the OJ zone you can't 'steal' since you can't get away from the hand if raised.

Well, you can still steal all-in. This is more of a red-zone move however.
I would venture to say that you MUST steal in the orange zone, but you may no longer have any folding equity with a 3x raise.

Cards are more or less irrevlant for an all-in steal if you define steal as a bet that is only called by good hands. I used to think AX was terrible to steal with, because of the domination factor - but think of it this way. A8s vs AK is like 30-70.
98 vs KQ is 33-67. But A8 is a FAVORITE over KQ!

A9 is alot better than A6. Also, the looser or more short handed the table, the better AX is to steal with. I guess with 5 players AX is no longer a stealing hand, and your "steal" becomes a raise-for-value.

A frequent move I'll make is the 'one last yellow zone steal' where I'll make a raise that I know, if I don't win the pot, will be the last one before I'm in push fold mode because losing those chips takes me to OJ. I like the play because it may allow me to stay yellow for another orbit, but if it fails my stack is now OJ and I can play more aggresively pre flop.

I do this too... right around M=9-11. Not quite push/fold...

Also I would play scs, pps out of the SB if there are limpers pretty much always, or some weird spot where there is a min raise and 5 calls behind or something, yellow or OJ.

SB is very hard to play in orange zone. If you actually have a hand, PVS steal all-in. This works well with AX because AJ-K is unlikely to be limped. The problem with calling in the sb is that you have to play a flop with a mediocre hand out of position with no room to fold. Say you flop middle pair. You are probably ahead, slightly. If you push, you are owned by top pair/hidden over pair. If you check, someone bets... now your folding equity is gone. Drawing hands are a little better - but you are going to be all-in on the flop, hopefully drawing to 8-9 outs.

Calling a bunch of limpers from the button is better because at least you act last on the frop. Seeing flops is definitly more of a yellow+ zone than a orange zone.

[jdubs]

good thread..I have trouble with these decisions in the yellow and orange too... One question I have is how do you treat limpers in general in these zones? harrington makes the point of "first in vigorish" and how you are able to take pots by simply being the first in, and acting strong (3x raise or higher), especially in mid to late position. But how about hands where theres a limper or 2..if you raise 3x (possible in the zellow zone) after 1-2 limpers, theres a good chance you are getting called by at least 1..so if you're looking to simply steal and dont want a call, I think you have to raise bigger- but in the yellow , and especially orange zones, this just not possible because you are risking a sizable part of your stack, so an all in move is likely more effective. But whats your range for making this move?? I know the table dynamice are important here.. but say with little reads and generally speaking... would you make this move with A 9? A 10? 88?? Of course as you get more more "orange" )say 10-12 M..your requirements are less.. and by the time you get close to the red (say 5-7 M), you're now maybe making this move with small pairs? or KJ? Q 10? I guess the real question is whats the difference in the ranges of hands you push in the Orange zone as opposed to the range you push with 1-2 limpers in there...

[Sprayed]

good thread..I have trouble with these decisions in the yellow and orange too... One question I have is how do you treat limpers in general in these zones? harrington makes the point of "first in vigorish" and how you are able to take pots by simply being the first in, and acting strong (3x raise or higher), especially in mid to late position. But how about hands where theres a limper or 2..if you raise 3x (possible in the zellow zone) after 1-2 limpers, theres a good chance you are getting called by at least 1..so if you're looking to simply steal and dont want a call, I think you have to raise bigger- but in the yellow , and especially orange zones, this just not possible because you are risking a sizable part of your stack, so an all in move is likely more effective. But whats your range for making this move?? I know the table dynamice are important here.. but say with little reads and generally speaking... would you make this move with A 9? A 10? 88?? Of course as you get more more "orange" )say 10-12 M..your requirements are less.. and by the time you get close to the red (say 5-7 M), you're now maybe making this move with small pairs? or KJ? Q 10? I guess the real question is whats the difference in the ranges of hands you push in the Orange zone as opposed to the range you push with 1-2 limpers in there...

From what I understand, you have to have a pretty strong hand to push after a few limpers. However, good players may make a fold to your raise but if they have a big stack and they are getting the right price they will call your raise. Therefore, pushing with limpers or raisers you need a big hand. If you can wait, fold and pick a spot that is folded to you and be the first one in. Could be with any hand if you have under an M of 5.

[zenbitz]

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From what I understand, you have to have a pretty strong hand to push after a few limpers. However, good players may make a fold to your raise but if they have a big stack and they are getting the right price they will call your raise. Therefore, pushing with limpers or raisers you need a big hand. If you can wait, fold and pick a spot that is folded to you and be the first one in. Could be with any hand if you have under an M of 5.

You can steal from SB/BB with any two here IF you have a tight image against weak/tight limpers. Here your M is not so important as your Q (how much of their stack is it to look you up).

You can also fold to limpers, when the blinds are big, it's allowed. I like to fold to limpers unless I already have a good idea of what they are limping. Some big stacks limp like the blinds are 10/20 (i.,e like Q7s no to mention the usually 33 and 78s). Some medium stacks don't realize their M = 7 and are still playing full table ring and limping small pockets and suited connectors. Some people only limp AA/KK to re-raise. Some people limp hands they want to play, but don't want to raise (AT/AJ/KT/88).

One thing that gets me into trouble is limping along with a short stack. Say you get like 89s in the SB, and 2 people limp. If the BB checks, you are getting 7:1, easy call, right? Execpt the limp is like 20% of your stack, and you are out of position vs. 4 opps. You have no choice but to push your good draw, TPNK, even mid-pairs. On the other hand, you can't really push 89s pre-flop if there is a decent chance someone calls you with like AT, or worse, 88!

So fold.