$16 Turbo - Limp behind limpers

[homerdash]

PokerStars Game #3551044071: Tournament #17622568, Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2006/01/06 - 15:00:43 (ET)
Table '17622568 1' Seat #6 is the button
Seat 3: Esran (885 in chips)
Seat 4: mageeser (2565 in chips)
Seat 5: DanGeD (1485 in chips)
Seat 6: homerdash (2250 in chips)
Seat 7: Col.Tom (1155 in chips)
Seat 8: cedrick83 (1828 in chips)
Seat 9: The_Clique_1 (3332 in chips)
Col.Tom: posts small blind 75
cedrick83: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to homerdash [8s Td]
The_Clique_1: folds
Esran: folds
mageeser: calls 150
DanGeD: calls 150
homerdash: calls 150
Col.Tom: calls 75
cedrick83: checks
*** FLOP *** [Jh Qh 9c]
Col.Tom: bets 300
cedrick83: calls 300
mageeser: folds
DanGeD: calls 300
homerdash: raises 1800 to 2100 and is all-in

Anyone else limp here preflop? After flopping 2nd nuts, standard?

[samsonite2100]

Two points:

1) Why are you limping 10/8o preflop? If it's because you have the button, raise it up PF--at least that way you've represented a premium hand and if you don't hit your miracle straight you can c-bet people out.

2) That said, I don't mind the push. I've been burned by slowplaying straights more times than I can count. A better play, however, might be to raise it to, like, 800. That should get rid of the flush drawers but maybe keep in the guy with AQ, or whatever. I think you could squeeze more value out of this.

[MAX]

I don't like the limp, but am definitly pushing. It's nearly the only way to give a flush draw the wrong odds to chase- since he is in essence getting 2 cards for his call and even 1 other caller gives him the right price. I like to take the pot down here and am more than happy when the draws fold and hands with very few outs to catch you call.

[mcatdog]

Don't limp. The big blind is 7 percent of your stack and you won't hit the flop hard often enough for this to be profitable.

[samsonite2100]

I don't like the limp, but am definitly pushing. It's nearly the only way to give a flush draw the wrong odds to chase- since he is in essence getting 2 cards for his call and even 1 other caller gives him the right price.

This is absolutely correct mathematically, but I question how many players at lower level SnGs are calculating pot odds. SnGs are much more about relative stack size and leverage than they are about making good or bad calls as relates to pot odds.

Anyway, I agree that pushing is probably the smartest, certainly the safest move. But I do think a healthy raise here has greater EV.

[homerdash]

Two points:

1) Why are you limping 10/8o preflop? If it's because you have the button, raise it up PF--at least that way you've represented a premium hand and if you don't hit your miracle straight you can c-bet people out.

2) That said, I don't mind the push. I've been burned by slowplaying straights more times than I can count. A better play, however, might be to raise it to, like, 800. That should get rid of the flush drawers but maybe keep in the guy with AQ, or whatever. I think you could squeeze more value out of this.

I'm limping because 2 other people limped in before me. Raising preflop is no good, if I raise I'm 95% sure to get 1-2 callers, at which point I have to hit something to continue. Also, if I raise 3xBB or more, I'm right at the 10BB point which is where my style goes into push/fold mode. The limpers make it more certain that I'll see the flop for just paying the BB.

I don't think I can get a whole lot more value out of this hand. I actually wanted everyone to fold, the pot is big enough at this point to take down without regret. Not only is the flush draw present, but anyone with a T is drawing to a chop, and anyone with a K (possibly on the flush draw too) is drawing to a better straight.

[homerdash]

Don't limp. The big blind is 7 percent of your stack and you won't hit the flop hard often enough for this to be profitable.

It's not so much about the relationship between BB size and my stack size, it's about the relationship between my stack size and their stack sizes. Even if I completely miss the flop and check/fold, I still have a ridiculous amount of leverage on everyone at the table.

[samsonite2100]

My point is no that you should raise. You should fold. Instafold. But if you are going to get involved, raise it.

[konahead]

While I regularly limp hands like 8To when on the button, it's usually when blinds are 50 or less. Here, you are using way too much of your stack.

I also would rather limp crap on the button when there are less opps in the hand. I understand pot odds and implied odds, but I limp to steal the pot, not to hit a monster. And the chances of stealing the pot with so many in the hand is slim to none...

Other than that, you played it fine. You have to push there or you risk losing the hand.

[lowBoy]

This is absolutely correct mathematically, but I question how many players at lower level SnGs are calculating pot odds. SnGs are much more about relative stack size and leverage than they are about making good or bad calls as relates to pot odds.

I question how many players at lower level SnGs are correctly thinking about stack sizes and leverage - in this hand, apparently none of them were.

Limp is bad - yeah, you'd still have a big chip lead over half of the table, but why donate more to them? This is a clear fold.

Push is good.

[zenbitz]

I think the call here is OK with position. Kinda loose. I would like it better if you were the big stack. If you were the big stack, you could min/raise or push as well.

Pushing the flop is good...flush draw AND idiot end. Calling and pushing non-heart turn might net more, but turn heart makes you puke.

Pushing is super good if someone still in has one of those (broken) "bluff detectors". I think you get alot of calls from KJ and shite.