Flopped K high flush

[Alameda]

PokerStars Game #3574847130: Tournament #17740828, Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2006/01/08 - 18:20:45 (ET)
Table '17740828 2' Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Alameda22 (3465 in chips)
Seat 2: dukiedan (5490 in chips)
Seat 3: Mrzz (7574 in chips)
Seat 4: RUgambler (4180 in chips)
Seat 5: AnaheimRob (5880 in chips)
Seat 6: ColinMF87 (4335 in chips)
Seat 7: McAce21 (2840 in chips)
Seat 8: DJD45 (4936 in chips)
Seat 9: mauiwoweeman (1800 in chips)
dukiedan: posts small blind 100
Mrzz: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Alameda22 [Td Kd]
RUgambler: folds
AnaheimRob: folds
ColinMF87: calls 200
McAce21: folds
DJD45: folds
mauiwoweeman: calls 200
Alameda22: calls 200
dukiedan: calls 100
Mrzz: checks
*** FLOP *** [7d Jd 4d]
dukiedan: checks
Mrzz: bets 400
ColinMF87: folds
mauiwoweeman: calls 400
Alameda22???


Alameda22: raises 1100 to 1500
dukiedan: calls 1500
Mrzz: folds
mauiwoweeman: calls 1100
*** TURN *** [7d Jd 4d] [Qd]
dukiedan: checks
mauiwoweeman: bets 100 and is all-in
Alameda22: raises 1665 to 1765 and is all-in
dukiedan: folds
*** RIVER *** [7d Jd 4d Qd] [7h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
mauiwoweeman: shows [Ad 5h] (a flush, Ace high)
Alameda22: shows [Td Kd] (a flush, King high)
mauiwoweeman collected 6100 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 6100 | Rake 0
Board [7d Jd 4d Qd 7h]
Seat 1: Alameda22 (button) showed [Td Kd] and lost with a flush, King high
Seat 2: dukiedan (small blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 3: Mrzz (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: RUgambler folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: AnaheimRob folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: ColinMF87 folded on the Flop
Seat 7: McAce21 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: DJD45 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: mauiwoweeman showed [Ad 5h] and won (6100) with a flush, Ace high

[taipan168]

I push the flop to try to take it down immediately - making it abundantly clear to anybody who might be holding the Ad that you've got a made hand.

[lowBoy]

I push too - there's 1800 in the pot, if you take it down you're all good.

[AHiltz]

I think that pushing loses you some money. I would call this and let them piss some more into the pot on the turn before you drop the hammer. IF someone has the Ace, there are only 7 suits left in the deck. The chances of that hitting on the turn are weak.

[Staresy]

Well, I fold KTs pre-flop, even with position.

[lowBoy]

I think that pushing loses you some money. I would call this and let them piss some more into the pot on the turn before you drop the hammer. IF someone has the Ace, there are only 7 suits left in the deck. The chances of that hitting on the turn are weak.

Calling is super weak here - you're giving cheap cards to an Ad, two pair or a set. You MUST raise this.

There's an 18% chance of the board pairing, and a %14 chance of a 4-flush. In a tournie situation, I'd rather put my money in when I hold the likely best hand and the pot is 1/2 our stack. You're letting people get cheap cards by just calling, and 32% of the time there's a bad card on the turn.

[AHiltz]

I think that pushing loses you some money. I would call this and let them piss some more into the pot on the turn before you drop the hammer. IF someone has the Ace, there are only 7 suits left in the deck. The chances of that hitting on the turn are weak.

Calling is super weak here - you're giving cheap cards to an Ad, two pair or a set. You MUST raise this.

There's an 18% chance of the board pairing, and a %14 chance of a 4-flush. In a tournie situation, I'd rather put my money in when I hold the likely best hand and the pot is 1/2 our stack. You're letting people get cheap cards by just calling, and 32% of the time there's a bad card on the turn.

I've been thinking over this hand for the last hour or so while working. After looking at the starting stack again, calling is def bad. With 1 opp with only 1200 left, you need to push here and now to take their odds away.

I retract my former quick answer.

[GatorJH]

Why is the answer always Push?

I push the flop to try to take it down immediately - making it abundantly clear to anybody who might be holding the Ad that you've got a made hand.

WHY?

At this point there is exactly ONE card in the deck that can beat you? Here is what I see going on:

You are sitting there with 3,265 chips remaining and have to put in 400 to win 1,800.

Mrzz, the chip leader, put out a pot sized bet after checking the BB. You can't put him on a pair higher than 10's or he would have raised pre-flop. Would he have bet pot if he flopped a set against a flush board? Possibly, but he could also have something like 7x and wants to take the pot down before someone can complete a 4 flush.

Maui's call on the flop just messes with my head. He is so short stacked that if he has ANY sort of hand he should have pushed. Of course, this could be the exact reason why he is short stacked in the first place. My guess is that he has a high Diamond (possibly even the A) and is hoping to complete the flush.

Wouldn't the goal here be to make either one of these two players add more chips to the pot while making a bad decision?

If you push you are raising the bet 2,865 (3,265 minus the 400 call) and creating a pot of 4,665.
Mrzz is now getting considerably less than 2 to 1 odds and will most certainly fold unless he has something big. Let's assume he would fold in that case.

That would leave Maui with having to call a 1,200 bet to make 3,000 (1,800 original plus your 1,200). He is now getting less than 3 to 1 odds so if he calls he is making an unprofitable move even if he is holding something like AdJs. However, he may still be compelled to call and hope to double up.

In that scenario, if your hand holds up you end up with 4,200 chips while if you lose you end up with 2,065.

Now, let's say you raise it up to 2,000.

Mrzz now has to put in 1,600 to win 3,800, again less than 3 to 1 and again would be a mistake unless he has a made hand. He MAY, however decide that you are trying to steal the pot and push you all-in (which I would think you want). Let's assume he does that.

Now, Maui is looking at putting in 1,200 to make 5,200 so this should be an automatic call with just about anything (which he should have SOMETHING here to call the original 400 bet). Let's assume he does call and you follow by calling mrzz' bet and put in your remaining 1,265.

There is now a main pot with 6,400 in it and a side pot with another 2,530.

Now, if your hand holds up, you take away 8,930 chips and if you beat Mrzz but lose to Maui you take back 2,530 chips.

In either situation if Mrzz calls your bet and beats you, you are out.

Am I missing something here or is the second scenario more profitable? Even if Mrzz just calls your bet on the flop, you could then push in on the turn with the same results.

[zenbitz]

It's an interesting question to be sure. I am pretty confident that Ad is going to the mat on this after putting 400 in. Especially like AJ/A7 with a diamond.

BUT there are 2 people already wanting to see the turn, and a 4th yet to act. And there is only 1 Ace of diamonds.

I am going to bring out the dreaded min/raise here. 3rd highest flush/set/Ad/other f/d + pairs/straight draws are probably paying you off, and you might bring someone with nothing along for the ride.

Pushing the flop just gets almost everyone NOT holding the Ad to fold, and almost never gets the Ad to fold.

I think you actually played it pretty well. You folded 1 guy with your raise, but got 2 callers. That's probably at least as good as pushing and getting 1 caller.

Oh, and M=11, fold KTs preflop. Or push.

[Aplomado]

Pot the flop and make 'em pay to chase. Oldest rule in the book.

[thnwkd]

Starting BR: $50.00
Current BR: $223.11
FPP: 449 <------------ you're keeping track of you frequent player points?
$5+.5 sng's on Star

[Alameda]

obviously not, im up to 720 now....
I better delete that since im too lazy to update

[Khabbi]

The only problem with potting the flop here is that you are basically putting in 50% of your chips. No matter what happens from then on, you are pot committed anyway.

I'd push the flop and if Mr Ad wanted to call against those more than horrible odds that'd make my day.

Plus there are two players left to act, and two who have already committed 400 chips. You really don't want the Ad to call with odds.

[GatorJH]

The only problem with potting the flop here is that you are basically putting in 50% of your chips. No matter what happens from then on, you are pot committed anyway.

I agree, however with what is most likely the best hand at this point I want to at least TRY and get more of their chips. True?

Plus there are two players left to act, and two who have already committed 400 chips. You really don't want the Ad to call with odds.

I think you meant "three left to act", however I would expect the SB to fold against a bet, call and raise unless he has already made the flush. If that happens you aren't giving Ad the correct odds to call, even with a raise of 1,600. You are just simply making it more enticing for him to make a bad decision and call.