A few questions for discussion...

[JeffreyGB]

I'd love discussion about each of the following questions. I don't just want a response of "I'd raise" or even "I'd raise [x amount]". Let's get into theory...why would you make that play?

- You have TT UTG. You limp to set (first level of an MTT [specifically the Super Monday]). It's folded to the button who raises a standard amount, and then folded to you. Do you 1)reraise (how much?) or 2)call and play postflop?

- How are you playing 88 (in the Party $40k) @ 25/50 blinds & a 2500 chip stack against an MP min-raise from a 500-chip stack?

- With 66 and 20k (Stars Rebuy $45k) @ 1500/3000/150, facing a 3x raise from UTG, your play in MP2 is to fold just about every time. Correct?

[WildBobAA]

1. I'm assuming a standard amount is about 40 w/ the 5/10 party blinds? Correct me if I'm wrong. I'd take a flop here and play poker. A reraise is putting to much of your stack in the pot OOP. I think with a stack of 1,000 you can call this and play some cards. (Once again, correct me if I have the numbers wrong).

2. Are you in the blinds or button/CO? If you're in the blinds you pretty much have to call here, even if you suspect he has a monster. If only 1 over flops, I'm betting 200ish to set the shortstack in and hoping that any other callers go away. If the shortstack has AA/KK then good for him.


3. This is an easy fold, you have no FE and you could easily be dominated.

[gabe]

for #3,
i might make this if UTG has opened alot of pots but not necessarily been a loose caller, or if the average stack is over 100k.

[JeffreyGB]

1. I'm assuming a standard amount is about 40 w/ the 5/10 party blinds? Correct me if I'm wrong. I'd take a flop here and play poker. A reraise is putting to much of your stack in the pot OOP. I think with a stack of 1,000 you can call this and play some cards. (Once again, correct me if I have the numbers wrong).

2. Are you in the blinds or button/CO? If you're in the blinds you pretty much have to call here, even if you suspect he has a monster. If only 1 over flops, I'm betting 200ish to set the shortstack in and hoping that any other callers go away. If the shortstack has AA/KK then good for him.


3. This is an easy fold, you have no FE and you could easily be dominated.

That's exactly how I played each of them, for just about the same reasons. In 1), villian had KQo and played the K-high flop pretty tricky. I felt like I could have pushed him off the hand preflop, but wasn't sure if I liked that play or not...ended up losing a lot of chips due to over aggression (in what I'm still not sure was a misplay - posting the HH in the high stakes forum for comment.

In 2) I called and pushed a T high flop. He turned over JTo.

In 3) I folded.

[WildBobAA]

That's exactly how I played each of them

Great minds think alike.

[Easy17]

1) if im not short or big, which i assume you are not here, im playing medium-small pp as draws for a set or a rag board with no overs. So i do what you did and call but im not happy knowing im drawing into a raised pot with a suck ass drawing hand.

2) totally different from 1, in this case i have him covered by a good amount of chips and im playing my 88 as if they were QQ and putting him all in preflop, playing the 88 like a power hand.

3) im not short here so im folding as you did. if im shorter im pushing.

so basically depending on my chip count vs blinds and vs others im always actually folding or overplaying my pocket pairs, either as a drawing hand (which they arent), or overplaying them as power hands (which they arent), but hey 22 vs AK is a favorite right?

[JeffreyGB]

1) if im not short or big, which i assume you are not here, im playing medium-small pp as draws for a set or a rag board with no overs. So i do what you did and call but im not happy knowing im drawing into a raised pot with a suck ass drawing hand.

With the odds offered here, playing any PP as a draw to a set is very +EV. 1/8 times you hit and can often destack an opponent who has any sort of hand. This is a much better play than drawing to a str or fl postflop IMO, because the odds are good and the draw is pretty cheap.

3) im not short here so im folding as you did. if im shorter im pushing.

20k w/ a 5800 starting pot is pretty short stacked. Your M is 4 here...if it gets much worse you're basically dead money. Hell, even 50k with those blinds/antes is only moderately comfortable.

so basically depending on my chip count vs blinds and vs others im always actually folding or overplaying my pocket pairs, either as a drawing hand (which they arent), or overplaying them as power hands (which they arent), but hey 22 vs AK is a favorite right?

I agree with that. One of the leaks I'm still trying to completely seal is treating them like power hands too often when I'm short. It's a pretty fine line though if you can factor in any FE...in the above case I can't, making it a much weaker hand I think.

[zenbitz]

1) clear call. You have already isolated. Might have to worry about a big pair... but don't you always??

2) I fold this. At best, a coin/flip for 20% of your stack. Your implied odds suck vs. short stack. If I read a min/raise as weak, I might push. You didn't state your position... I think I fold on CO/BU but raise SB/BB. Possibly STANGNAF (Stop-and-go-no-ace-flop).

3) Yeah, a fold unless guy is habitually open raising UTG... M=4... that might be a clear push. Wot is villain's stack size? This is a gut call for me. But you have to make a move soon. If not this orbit than for sure before the blinds get you again.

Anywhere near ITM in 3?

[JeffreyGB]

I guess I wasn't clear about 1). There's no way I'm folding. The option I was considering was coming over the top to put his position raise to the test.

[JeffreyGB]

2) I fold this. At best, a coin/flip for 20% of your stack. Your implied odds suck vs. short stack. If I read a min/raise as weak, I might push. You didn't state your position... I think I fold on CO/BU but raise SB/BB. Possibly STANGNAF (Stop-and-go-no-ace-flop).

I do read the min-raise as weak and considered pushing over preflop. I called and pushed a T high flop. He turned over JTo.

3) Yeah, a fold unless guy is habitually open raising UTG... M=4... that might be a clear push. Wot is villain's stack size? This is a gut call for me. But you have to make a move soon. If not this orbit than for sure before the blinds get you again.

Anywhere near ITM in 3?

Villian's a big stack. Somewhat near the money...For reference, this was about 1.2 orbits before the 94o push I bubbled out on.

[zenbitz]

I guess I wasn't clear about 1). There's no way I'm folding. The option I was considering was coming over the top to put his position raise to the test.

No. This early I don't want to send out any invitations to gamble. With a weak read, or a read that he will only/call push with AK/QQ+, I can re-raise. Limp re-raise repping AA... hmmm.... Super Monday hmmmm.... it's so crazy it just might work! (no plan like that EVER works)

I think that would be a great move if you have already doubled through and are looking to establish dominance over your table early.

[JeffreyGB]

I guess I wasn't clear about 1). There's no way I'm folding. The option I was considering was coming over the top to put his position raise to the test.

No. This early I don't want to send out any invitations to gamble. With a weak read, or a read that he will only/call push with AK/QQ+, I can re-raise. Limp re-raise repping AA... hmmm.... Super Monday hmmmm.... it's so crazy it just might work! (no plan like that EVER works)

I think that would be a great move if you have already doubled through and are looking to establish dominance over your table early.

Another argument is that my edge over the field in the Super Monday is less, so I should be more willing to take a flip with a likely modest edge early looking to double. I don't know if that's valid or not...plus, as soupie told me, a lot of people satellite in, so the field is actually weaker than one would think - something I'd agree with after last night (and an argument in favor of waiting).

[zenbitz]

2) I fold this. At best, a coin/flip for 20% of your stack. Your implied odds suck vs. short stack. If I read a min/raise as weak, I might push. You didn't state your position... I think I fold on CO/BU but raise SB/BB. Possibly STANGNAF (Stop-and-go-no-ace-flop).

I do read the min-raise as weak and considered pushing over preflop. I called and pushed a T high flop. He turned over JTo.

MIN RAISING PWNS CHOOO.

3) Yeah, a fold unless guy is habitually open raising UTG... M=4... that might be a clear push. Wot is villain's stack size? This is a gut call for me. But you have to make a move soon. If not this orbit than for sure before the blinds get you again.
Anywhere near ITM in 3?

Villian's a big stack. Somewhat near the money...For reference, this was about 1.2 orbits before the 94o push I bubbled out on.

Conflicting data again. Big stack is likely to call... but you are a long way from that FT and need chips sumthin' awful. For the record, I like pushing here way better than that 94o! Even open pushing from BU.

In the 94 push, you had some folding equity, but such a crappy hand that any call is correct. Here, you have no folding equity, but are a flip at best.

bah, 66 of one, 94o of an other. Rock and a hard place. Insert your cliche' here.

[JeffreyGB]

Do you think the folding equity in the 94o hand added at least 15% of value (I'd say yes). Then it was as good a push as this, as that makes it equally flipping, plus I have the advantage of being first to act.

[zenbitz]

Sorry, I changed my mind at the end. Both pushes are super slim, but you gotta play 'em whats theys was deattchay. Neither one is much better than the other.... would welcome some ICM math that says different.

[JeffreyGB]

Sorry, I changed my mind at the end. Both pushes are super slim, but you gotta play 'em whats theys was deattchay. Neither one is much better than the other.... would welcome some ICM math that says different.

That's kinda how I feel in retrospect...and I think they are slim enough to both be folds. I needed just a bit more FE for either to be good, I think.