Never sure what to do here.... HELP!!

[Monty9]

I always get confused with these situations especially when not sure if opps are on the same page. Plus I always worry about proper play and etiquite. I have been berated for betting out in these but have had my fair share of opps betting at me. Never sure of correct play.

$30.00 S&G on PP.
Last 3.
Blinds around $500.
Button -- short stack w/ around 750 .... PUSHES AI
SB --- even w/ me +/- 3500...................CALLS
BB (me) pick up JJ....................CALL
FLOP.................all low rags
SB................................................ ......CHECKs
BB (me) ...........CHECKS... Was willing to check this down
TURN....... 10
SB ......bets like 1/2 pot........
BB (me) .... I got pissed and PUSHED...
RIVER ....rag.....
BB turns over A,10. I cripple him and knock him out the next hand.

1. Should SB have bet out the turn?

1. Should I have raised preflop?
2. Should I have bet the Flop?

My rule of thumb for these situations is if its early in a tourney I go for the CASH
If its late I go for the SEAT = PLACE = BIGGER PAYOUT

Last Q. Does anything change if this was a big money MTT with
over 1k payout difference between 2nd & 3rd?

[AHiltz]

SB should not have raised. I have no issue with your push IF you firmly believe that he only has a pair of T's or lower. He asked for it.

Preflop push would not have been out of the question either. You very likely have the best hand.

[vqc]

wat?
final 3 blinds are at 250/500 and u flat call preflop after a shorty all in and a flat call?
WTF PUSH PREFLOP? What etiquette is there besides winning money?

1k difference between 2 and 3?
The only way that it would change is how u would end up calculating the $EV that this play is. The answer woudl also probably be push preflop, I dont see how anything else would be correct.

The blinds are huge. YOu have 7xBB. Very quickly in front of u, the pot baloons to almost half ur stack and then ur inclined to flat call?!

Am i missing out on something here?

[Monty9]

So theres two different views already.

So vcq ... me and the SB don't try and take out the all in with our two hands together. I was perfectly willing to play him heads up about equal in chips if we knocked out the button.

And it doesnt matter if the payout diff is larger?? I'd have to think twice about that.

[vqc]

So theres two different views already.

So vcq ... me and the SB don't try and take out the all in with our two hands together. I was perfectly willing to play him heads up about equal in chips if we knocked out the button.

And it doesnt matter if the payout diff is larger?? I'd have to think twice about that.

in a situation with the blinds being extraordinarily big and everyone being extremely short stacked, wat the SB has done here is just sweeten the pot for u . You want those chips and you want them bad. Lets say that the SB has u covered by one chip here and everyone goes all in with 2 random cards. The worst for u is that end up being knocked out in third. The best is that you end up with a HUGE HUGE chip lead and guaranteeing first. In this situation you have a monster hand which means that more often than not, even if everyone ends up all in, you will end up with the best of it.

One thing I will say again is that the pot is huge and u want those chips. U have 7xBB and JJ with a huge pot, u defintiely do not want to check it down here so that u can kinda guarantee urself second. You would much rather explode into first place.

U noted the prize pool in a dolar amount. Dollar amounts mean nothing when ur talking about tournaments. All that matters is percentage of prize pool. If its a 50%-30%-20% payout, ur play if it was $50-$30-$20 should be no different from $5000-$3000-$2000.

[AHiltz]

One thing I should add is I feel HU is my strongest aspect of SnG play. So, I have no issues in trying to gang up on the shorty in order to get it down to 2 people.

[boost]

youre too short to try and gang up on the short stack. You know why? because youre a short stack yourself. 3 handed and with the stacks so short, JJ needs to be treated like a monster preflop, but you cant feel safe checking it down because there are 3 over cards that could crush you. Preflop you are almost definatley ahead, but you dont want to see a flop with 2 other players in. Like vqc said, you can check it down and get second guaranteed probaly 80-90% of the time, or you could push preflop and probably get 1st 75% of the time. Considering that first typically pays almost 4x(2nd) (Im talking net here), Id rather go for the win.

As for etiquette.. no such thing exist in these situations. Poker etiquette is about not saying your mucked cards while people are still in the hand. And not doing other things that are boarderline cheating. In live play, stack your chips nicely with the bigger denominations in front, so people can estimate how big your stack is. Someone got angry at me for doing something similar, however I was the big stack, and I think I had AK or something, or a medium pp, Im not quite sure. Anyways, we where on the bubble and I pushed him out preflop. When the cards where flipped up, he starts raving about how Im an idiot and how I shouldnt have done that. He kept telling me I didnt know how stupid I was. Well the thing is, Im not a fucking chump, I thrive on the fucking bubble, Im the big stack, I really could care less if I lose a coinflip here, if I win we are in the money and Im definately getting first. If I lose Im still a big chip lead and again, I thrive on the bubble, Im getting first anyways. As you can see, if I followed this silly idea of 'etiquette', it would not be the best +ev play. Dont get me wrong though, there are times when calling and checking down are fine. If you had KQ for example you should probably just call preflop, but even here if I hit my K or Q and think its good, Im gonna get the other guy out.

[konahead]

1.a - yes, he should bet with top pair, as you should bet with overpair
1.b - yes, when sb called shorty push, you should have pushed all-in right there to get heads-up with the short stack.
2 - yes, since you didnt push preflop, and you had a dry sidepot, you should have bet out at least 1200 (1/2 of main pot ) on that flop to get more of sb's chips.

and no, nothing changes between big money and small money. Either way, you want the chips in the middle and you have a monster hand for 3-handed play.

It actually worked out better for you the way it went down, and you sort of played it in a trapping manner, but not on purpose.....

If you had a crap hand and simply called based on pot odds, then checking it down would have been fine. But given your cards, checking it down is wrong. SB knew that, which is why he bet out the turn with his TPTK.

Question for the gallery - if you were SB and hero had pushed preflop after you had already called short stack's 750 ai push - do you call or fold AT? does suited vs unsuited matter? In that situation, does prize money size matter? (I believe it does, since you may call in a $33 but fold in WSOP.....) What do you think? (not to hijack the thread, monty)

[Monty9]

Go for it kono....

This is great stuff and what I was looking for. I definately have a better feel for this situation now. Bests stuff to be posted on the subject I've read on this site.

Thanks.

As for your senario. I probably fold in both games. By folding I'm sure I play another orbit or two and theres a good chance I get 2nd not that far behind in chips to leader. If Button wins the hand Im no worst off than the begining of the hand. Now I would maybe push w. A,10 but not call an AI with it.

[Aces]

To the original hand...push PF every time. If not, then definitely bet the flop.

If I called w/AT and BB pushed, I would fold suited or not and regardless of the stakes with the given chip counts.

[aleksandr]

This is push city preflop; it's likely that you have both the other players dominated, and they may even have conflicting aces. Either way, Jacks are and have always been vulnerable to overcards; you want all your money in here before they hit. Also, if he calls you you're likely to triple up here.

Side note: I do like the way this played out, and maybe I'll try it to elicit a bet on the flop or turn against an aggressive player with a monster hand. Even though that would be an abuse of ettiquite, I think in this situation you can slowplay AA-QQ and even maybe AKs, JJ and TT without much worry, trying to trap an aggressive player value betting his Top or Middle pair. Thoughts?

[konahead]

I don't think what you are describing is an abuse of etiquette at all.......